[101717] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] On the history of KLI
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Fri Oct 30 16:21:36 2015
In-Reply-To: <A33E93BE-DB19-4623-8344-D7790B8CF719@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 22:21:19 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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thank you lojmIt tI'wI'nuv for sharing all this information,and thank you
all for replying ; just a final question on the subject (if you or anyone
else remembers).. was the artist who created the logo,part of the Klingon
community or just an artist who had nothing to do with the language ?
On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:06 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> The six people who came for the duration of qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=
=80=99DIch (and perhaps
> the other half dozen who visited it at some point during that week) are
> considered to be founding members. Yes, Laurence came up with the idea, a=
nd
> has been the president of the KLI since its inception, but I doubt he wou=
ld
> consider himself to be the only founding member, since it=E2=80=99s not a=
group if
> it only has one person in it.
>
> I=E2=80=99m a founding member. SuStel is a founding member. ghunchu=E2=80=
=99wI=E2=80=99 is a
> founding member. Seqram is a founding member. Qanqor is a founding member=
.
> I think Holtej is a founding member (unless he joined slightly later). My
> memory is imperfect, and I won=E2=80=99t try to stretch it to include the=
others.
> They should identify themselves, if they still subscribe to this list. I =
do
> not wish to disrespect anyone else who deserves the title of founding
> member by my omission. I just don=E2=80=99t remember that well. Time is n=
ot my
> strong suit. I remember how and why. Everything else is a blur. I use
> computers to deal with who, what, when, where, which, etc. How and why, I
> remember compulsively.
>
> Just know that Lawrence is not the only founding member of the KLI.
>
> There have been a number of artists who have offered their craft to the
> KLI. One of them invented the KLI=E2=80=99s logo. Neither Marc Orkand nor=
Paramount
> was not involved in that project. Lawrence asked for something that
> suggested the trefoil that belongs to Paramount, but would be sufficientl=
y
> different from it to avoid issues of copyright, and was very happy with
> what the artist came up with. He could name the artist. I can=E2=80=99t. =
It was
> done within the first decade of the KLI, perhaps in the latter half of th=
at
> decade.
>
> HoD Qanqor and Seqram attended the one and only Klingon camp (I think in
> Minnesota) the year before qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch =E2=80=
=94 the endeavor of a competing
> Klingon Language organization that did not survive. That was intended to =
be
> an annual event, but it didn=E2=80=99t pan out. At the time, HoD Qanqor w=
as the
> only individual in the 20th century on Earth who could speak the language=
.
> Seqram was jealous, since he could already speak over a dozen languages,
> most of which were either =E2=80=9Cdead=E2=80=9D or artificial, so at qep=
=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch, he,
> too, could speak the language and the rest of us gawked, and pulled out o=
ur
> dictionaries a lot.
>
> By qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 cha=E2=80=99DIch several of us could haltingly =
speak the language,
> pulling out our dictionaries a lot. Especially once Qov showed up, having
> memorized all the words the rest of us hadn=E2=80=99t gotten around to le=
arning
> yet. We call them =E2=80=9CQov words=E2=80=9D.
>
> And ghuyDo=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99, who also memorized the entire vocabulary=
=E2=80=A6 and the entire
> taH pagh taHbe=E2=80=99 monologue spoken so fast it was painful to attemp=
t to
> parse. (For me, anyway.)
>
> Seqram accidentally invented the word for =E2=80=9Carmpit=E2=80=9D, which=
was eventually
> turned into an actual canon word by Okrand, as a joke. Seqram had created
> it as an example of why we should not make up words, and someone missed t=
he
> point and added it to their dictionary. A year later, the person who made
> the mistake claimed it was a canon word, though he couldn=E2=80=99t remem=
ber the
> source. Extensive research of the archives (by ghunchu=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=
=99) revealed the
> origin and we shared it with Marc Okrand as a joke, whereupon he gleefull=
y
> explained that it really was the word for =E2=80=9Carmpit=E2=80=9D. And p=
oof! He waves his
> magic wand, and it=E2=80=99s an official word.
>
> I accidentally gave an existing word a new definition because of an
> alignment error in the copy of my dictionary that I gave to Okrand, and h=
e
> turned into canon in the word list at the end of one of his later books.
> Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, maybe? I don=E2=80=99t have them with =
me.
>
> There are words like {yID} - =E2=80=9Cto be Jewish=E2=80=9D, which are NO=
T canon words,
> and continue to exist as jokes, very persistently explained to NOT be can=
on
> words, every time they are used.
>
> There has never been an instance where anyone except Marc Okrand has
> invented a word and then, without Marc eventually declaring it canon, it
> became canon.
>
> He has granted several of us a one-time privilege to ask for a word from
> Maltz. I was offered that, and instead of coming up with something, I jus=
t
> passed forward a request from someone else on this list for words for =E2=
=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D
> and =E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D, since that seemed like a more useful word t=
han anything I
> could come up with on short notice. Each of the =E2=80=9CFriends of Maltz=
=E2=80=9D was
> granted this privilege for life-time contributions to the language.
>
> Marc Okrand is a kind, gracious man who guards his privacy, and we are
> happy to respect that privacy as a sign of respect for the gift he gave u=
s.
> He was hired to coach actors to dub gibberish for a movie. He came up wit=
h
> the idea of inventing an entire language. That choice on his part was the
> spark that made all of this happen.
>
> And it is magical how far it has gone from there.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:14 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:49 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> i just read this link,and unfortunately it doesn't provide direct answer=
s
>> - or any answers at all - to the aforementioned questions. thank you ver=
y
>> much though !
>>
>
> It seemed to answer your first question:
>
> how long after the creation of klingon language was the KLI formed ?
>
> The language (dictionary) came out in 1985 and the KLI started in 1992,
> so that would be 1992-1985 =3D 7 years after
>
>
>
>>
>> from what i read two more questions arose.
>>
>> it mentioned an opera 'u' written and performed in klingon. where can i
>> find the text of this opera ?
>>
>
> The text of the opera 'u' became the text of the paq'batlh. That's the
> closest you'll be able to get right now.
>
>
>>>> did okrand know any of the founding members of KLI,prior to the
>>>> creation of the language ?
>>>>
>>>
> Only Lawrence can probably answer that question as he was the only
> founding member.
>
>
>
>> has any of the founding members of KLI created vocabulary and/or
>>>> grammar,which is considered canon ?
>>>>
>>>
> No. Only Okrand has created vocabulary and/or grammar that is considered
> canon. Although he may have based his ideas on other people's
> ideas/requests.
>
>
>>
>>>> with regards to the KLI logo/emblem. (the spiked wheel,with the three
>>>> blades within it..)
>>>>
>>>> who designed it ?
>>>> how long has it been the logo of KLI ?
>>>>
>>>
> For as long as I can remember (20+ years?)
>
>
>
>> has Okrand had anything to do with its creation ?
>>>>
>>>
> Unlikely.
>
> qurgh
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">thank you <span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">lojmIt tI'wI'nu=
v for sharing all this information,and thank you all for replying ; just a =
final question on the subject (if you or anyone else remembers).. was the a=
rtist who created the logo,part of the Klingon community or just an artist =
who had nothing to do with the language ?<br></span></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 10:06 PM, =
Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The s=
ix people who came for the duration of qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DI=
ch (and perhaps the other half dozen who visited it at some point during th=
at week) are considered to be founding members. Yes, Laurence came up with =
the idea, and has been the president of the KLI since its inception, but I =
doubt he would consider himself to be the only founding member, since it=E2=
=80=99s not a group if it only has one person in it.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I=E2=80=99m a founding member. SuStel is a founding member. ghunchu=E2=
=80=99wI=E2=80=99 is a founding member. Seqram is a founding member. Qanqor=
is a founding member. I think Holtej is a founding member (unless he joine=
d slightly later). My memory is imperfect, and I won=E2=80=99t try to stret=
ch it to include the others. They should identify themselves, if they still=
subscribe to this list. I do not wish to disrespect anyone else who deserv=
es the title of founding member by my omission. I just don=E2=80=99t rememb=
er that well. Time is not my strong suit. I remember how and why. Everythin=
g else is a blur. I use computers to deal with who, what, when, where, whic=
h, etc. How and why, I remember compulsively.</div><div><br></div><div>Just=
know that Lawrence is not the only founding member of the KLI.</div><div><=
br></div><div>There have been a number of artists who have offered their cr=
aft to the KLI. One of them invented the KLI=E2=80=99s logo. Neither Marc O=
rkand nor Paramount was not involved in that project. Lawrence asked for so=
mething that suggested the trefoil that belongs to Paramount, but would be =
sufficiently different from it to avoid issues of copyright, and was very h=
appy with what the artist came up with. He could name the artist. I can=E2=
=80=99t. It was done within the first decade of the KLI, perhaps in the lat=
ter half of that decade.</div><div><br></div><div>HoD Qanqor and Seqram att=
ended the one and only Klingon camp (I think in Minnesota) the year before =
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch =E2=80=94 the endeavor of a competin=
g Klingon Language organization that did not survive. That was intended to =
be an annual event, but it didn=E2=80=99t pan out. At the time, HoD Qanqor =
was the only individual in the 20th century on Earth who could speak the la=
nguage. Seqram was jealous, since he could already speak over a dozen langu=
ages, most of which were either =E2=80=9Cdead=E2=80=9D or artificial, so at=
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch, he, too, could speak the language =
and the rest of us gawked, and pulled out our dictionaries a lot.</div><div=
><br></div><div>By qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 cha=E2=80=99DIch several of us co=
uld haltingly speak the language, pulling out our dictionaries a lot. Espec=
ially once Qov showed up, having memorized all the words the rest of us had=
n=E2=80=99t gotten around to learning yet. We call them =E2=80=9CQov words=
=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br></div><div>And ghuyDo=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99, who al=
so memorized the entire vocabulary=E2=80=A6 and the entire taH pagh taHbe=
=E2=80=99 monologue spoken so fast it was painful to attempt to parse. (For=
me, anyway.)</div><div><br></div><div>Seqram accidentally invented the wor=
d for =E2=80=9Carmpit=E2=80=9D, which was eventually turned into an actual =
canon word by Okrand, as a joke. Seqram had created it as an example of why=
we should not make up words, and someone missed the point and added it to =
their dictionary. A year later, the person who made the mistake claimed it =
was a canon word, though he couldn=E2=80=99t remember the source. Extensive=
research of the archives (by ghunchu=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99) revealed the ori=
gin and we shared it with Marc Okrand as a joke, whereupon he gleefully exp=
lained that it really was the word for =E2=80=9Carmpit=E2=80=9D. And poof! =
He waves his magic wand, and it=E2=80=99s an official word.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I accidentally gave an existing word a new definition because of =
an alignment error in the copy of my dictionary that I gave to Okrand, and =
he turned into canon in the word list at the end of one of his later books.=
Klingon for the Galactic Traveler, maybe? I don=E2=80=99t have them with m=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>There are words like {yID} - =E2=80=9Cto be Jew=
ish=E2=80=9D, which are NOT canon words, and continue to exist as jokes, ve=
ry persistently explained to NOT be canon words, every time they are used.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>There has never been an instance where anyone exce=
pt Marc Okrand has invented a word and then, without Marc eventually declar=
ing it canon, it became canon.</div><div><br></div><div>He has granted seve=
ral of us a one-time privilege to ask for a word from Maltz. I was offered =
that, and instead of coming up with something, I just passed forward a requ=
est from someone else on this list for words for =E2=80=9Ctop=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Cbottom=E2=80=9D, since that seemed like a more useful word than an=
ything I could come up with on short notice. Each of the =E2=80=9CFriends o=
f Maltz=E2=80=9D was granted this privilege for life-time contributions to =
the language.</div><div><br></div><div>Marc Okrand is a kind, gracious man =
who guards his privacy, and we are happy to respect that privacy as a sign =
of respect for the gift he gave us. He was hired to coach actors to dub gib=
berish for a movie. He came up with the idea of inventing an entire languag=
e. That choice on his part was the spark that made all of this happen.</div=
><div><br></div><div>And it is magical how far it has gone from there.</div=
><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Oct 30, 2=
015, at 1:14 PM, qurgh lungqIj <<a href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><di=
v><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:49 PM, qunnoQ HoD <span dir=3D"=
ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gma=
il.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
><div>i just read this link,and unfortunately it doesn't provide direct=
answers - or any answers at all - to the aforementioned questions. thank y=
ou very much though !<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>It seemed to answer your first question:</div><div><br></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">how long after the creation of klingon lan=
guage was the KLI formed ?<br></span><br>The language (dictionary) came out=
in=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:Ubuntu,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-h=
eight:18.5714px">1985 and the KLI started in=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Ubuntu,sans-serif;font-size:13px;line-height:18.5714px">1992, so t=
hat would be 1992-1985 =3D 7 years after</span></div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><br></div>from=
what i read two more questions arose.<br><br></div>it mentioned an opera &=
#39;u' written and performed in klingon. where can i find the text of t=
his opera ?<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The text of the=
opera 'u' became the text of the paq'batlh. That's the clo=
sest you'll be able to get right now.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-=
width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;paddin=
g-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>did okrand know any of the found=
ing members of KLI,prior to the creation of the language ?<br></div></div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>Only Lawrence can probably answer that question as=
he was the only founding member. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:soli=
d;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">has any of the founding me=
mbers of KLI created vocabulary and/or grammar,which is considered canon ?<=
br></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br>No. Only Okrand has created vocabulary and/or=
grammar that is considered canon. Although he may have based his ideas on =
other people's ideas/requests.<br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-lef=
t-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>with regards to the KLI logo/emblem. (the spiked=
wheel,with the three blades within it..)<br><br>who designed it ?<br>how l=
ong has it been the logo of KLI ?<br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
For as long as I can remember (20+ years?)</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:=
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">has Okrand had anything =
to do with its creation ?</div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></block=
quote></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Unlikely.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>qurgh</div></div></div></div></div></div><span class=
=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>__________________________=
_____________________<br>
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