[101718] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] On the history of KLI
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Holt)
Fri Oct 30 16:59:10 2015
From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2015 20:58:52 +0000
In-Reply-To: <A33E93BE-DB19-4623-8344-D7790B8CF719@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I joined the KLI in 1992 and there were already members there ahead of me, =
so it's hard for me to think of a 1994 group (at qep'a' wa'DIch) as the "fo=
unding" members, though I think a few of the people you listed were also in=
the list of members that were there before me. I actually have a print out=
from 1992 of the original bylaws (on continuous tractor-feed paper with AS=
CII art), but they don't mention the officers' names.
I was also one of the instructors at the camp in Red Lake Falls in 1993, bu=
t then I missed qep'a' wa'DIch and cha'DIch and only participated through t=
he mailing list until wejDIch. I still have the VHS of the news report on =
the camp. I should get that transferred to digital for the KLI archives.
I think it would be good to collect and share some info on the early years =
of the KLI. Anyone want to play journalist at the next qep'a' and pin down=
Lawrence for some of the answers?
janSIy
--- Original Message ---
From: "Will Martin" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Sent: October 30, 2015 3:08 PM
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] On the history of KLI
The six people who came for the duration of qep=92a=92 wa=92DIch (and perha=
ps the other half dozen who visited it at some point during that week) are =
considered to be founding members. Yes, Laurence came up with the idea, and=
has been the president of the KLI since its inception, but I doubt he woul=
d consider himself to be the only founding member, since it=92s not a group=
if it only has one person in it.
I=92m a founding member. SuStel is a founding member. ghunchu=92wI=92 is a =
founding member. Seqram is a founding member. Qanqor is a founding member. =
I think Holtej is a founding member (unless he joined slightly later). My m=
emory is imperfect, and I won=92t try to stretch it to include the others. =
They should identify themselves, if they still subscribe to this list. I do=
not wish to disrespect anyone else who deserves the title of founding memb=
er by my omission. I just don=92t remember that well. Time is not my strong=
suit. I remember how and why. Everything else is a blur. I use computers t=
o deal with who, what, when, where, which, etc. How and why, I remember com=
pulsively.
Just know that Lawrence is not the only founding member of the KLI.
There have been a number of artists who have offered their craft to the KLI=
. One of them invented the KLI=92s logo. Neither Marc Orkand nor Paramount =
was not involved in that project. Lawrence asked for something that suggest=
ed the trefoil that belongs to Paramount, but would be sufficiently differe=
nt from it to avoid issues of copyright, and was very happy with what the a=
rtist came up with. He could name the artist. I can=92t. It was done within=
the first decade of the KLI, perhaps in the latter half of that decade.
HoD Qanqor and Seqram attended the one and only Klingon camp (I think in Mi=
nnesota) the year before qep=92a=92 wa=92DIch =97 the endeavor of a competi=
ng Klingon Language organization that did not survive. That was intended to=
be an annual event, but it didn=92t pan out. At the time, HoD Qanqor was t=
he only individual in the 20th century on Earth who could speak the languag=
e. Seqram was jealous, since he could already speak over a dozen languages,=
most of which were either =93dead=94 or artificial, so at qep=92a=92 wa=92=
DIch, he, too, could speak the language and the rest of us gawked, and pull=
ed out our dictionaries a lot.
By qep=92a=92 cha=92DIch several of us could haltingly speak the language, =
pulling out our dictionaries a lot. Especially once Qov showed up, having m=
emorized all the words the rest of us hadn=92t gotten around to learning ye=
t. We call them =93Qov words=94.
And ghuyDo=92 wa=92, who also memorized the entire vocabulary=85 and the en=
tire taH pagh taHbe=92 monologue spoken so fast it was painful to attempt t=
o parse. (For me, anyway.)
Seqram accidentally invented the word for =93armpit=94, which was eventuall=
y turned into an actual canon word by Okrand, as a joke. Seqram had created=
it as an example of why we should not make up words, and someone missed th=
e point and added it to their dictionary. A year later, the person who made=
the mistake claimed it was a canon word, though he couldn=92t remember the=
source. Extensive research of the archives (by ghunchu=92wI=92) revealed t=
he origin and we shared it with Marc Okrand as a joke, whereupon he gleeful=
ly explained that it really was the word for =93armpit=94. And poof! He wav=
es his magic wand, and it=92s an official word.
I accidentally gave an existing word a new definition because of an alignme=
nt error in the copy of my dictionary that I gave to Okrand, and he turned =
into canon in the word list at the end of one of his later books. Klingon f=
or the Galactic Traveler, maybe? I don=92t have them with me.
There are words like {yID} - =93to be Jewish=94, which are NOT canon words,=
and continue to exist as jokes, very persistently explained to NOT be cano=
n words, every time they are used.
There has never been an instance where anyone except Marc Okrand has invent=
ed a word and then, without Marc eventually declaring it canon, it became c=
anon.
He has granted several of us a one-time privilege to ask for a word from Ma=
ltz. I was offered that, and instead of coming up with something, I just pa=
ssed forward a request from someone else on this list for words for =93top=
=94 and =93bottom=94, since that seemed like a more useful word than anythi=
ng I could come up with on short notice. Each of the =93Friends of Maltz=94=
was granted this privilege for life-time contributions to the language.
Marc Okrand is a kind, gracious man who guards his privacy, and we are happ=
y to respect that privacy as a sign of respect for the gift he gave us. He =
was hired to coach actors to dub gibberish for a movie. He came up with the=
idea of inventing an entire language. That choice on his part was the spar=
k that made all of this happen.
And it is magical how far it has gone from there.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:14 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net<mailto:qurgh@w=
izage.net>> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:49 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com<mailto:mihk=
oun@gmail.com>> wrote:
i just read this link,and unfortunately it doesn't provide direct answers -=
or any answers at all - to the aforementioned questions. thank you very mu=
ch though !
It seemed to answer your first question:
how long after the creation of klingon language was the KLI formed ?
The language (dictionary) came out in 1985 and the KLI started in 1992, so =
that would be 1992-1985 =3D 7 years after
from what i read two more questions arose.
it mentioned an opera 'u' written and performed in klingon. where can i fin=
d the text of this opera ?
The text of the opera 'u' became the text of the paq'batlh. That's the clos=
est you'll be able to get right now.
did okrand know any of the founding members of KLI,prior to the creation of=
the language ?
Only Lawrence can probably answer that question as he was the only founding=
member.
has any of the founding members of KLI created vocabulary and/or grammar,wh=
ich is considered canon ?
No. Only Okrand has created vocabulary and/or grammar that is considered ca=
non. Although he may have based his ideas on other people's ideas/requests.
with regards to the KLI logo/emblem. (the spiked wheel,with the three blade=
s within it..)
who designed it ?
how long has it been the logo of KLI ?
For as long as I can remember (20+ years?)
has Okrand had anything to do with its creation ?
Unlikely.
qurgh
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<body class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma; c=
olor:black">I joined the KLI in 1992 and there were already members there a=
head of me, so it's hard for me to think of a 1994 group (at qep'a' wa'DIch=
) as the "founding" members, though I think a few of the people y=
ou listed were also in the list of members that were there before me. I act=
ually have a print out from 1992 of the original bylaws (on continuous trac=
tor-feed paper with ASCII art), but they don't mention the officers' names.=
=0A=
=0A=
I was also one of the instructors at the camp in Red Lake Falls in 1993, bu=
t then I missed qep'a' wa'DIch and cha'DIch and only participated through t=
he mailing list until wejDIch. I still have the VHS of the news report on =
the camp. I should get that transferred to digital for the KLI archives. =
=0A=
=0A=
I think it would be good to collect and share some info on the early years =
of the KLI. Anyone want to play journalist at the next qep'a' and pin down=
Lawrence for some of the answers?=0A=
=0A=
janSIy=0A=
=0A=
--- Original Message ---=0A=
=0A=
From: "Will Martin" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>=0A=
Sent: October 30, 2015 3:08 PM=0A=
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>=0A=
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] On the history of KLI=0A=
=0A=
</pre>
<div>
<div class=3D"">The six people who came for the duration of qep=92a=92 wa=
=92DIch (and perhaps the other half dozen who visited it at some point duri=
ng that week) are considered to be founding members. Yes, Laurence came up =
with the idea, and has been the president
of the KLI since its inception, but I doubt he would consider himself to b=
e the only founding member, since it=92s not a group if it only has one per=
son in it.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I=92m a founding member. SuStel is a founding member. ghunc=
hu=92wI=92 is a founding member. Seqram is a founding member. Qanqor is a f=
ounding member. I think Holtej is a founding member (unless he joined sligh=
tly later). My memory is imperfect, and
I won=92t try to stretch it to include the others. They should identify th=
emselves, if they still subscribe to this list. I do not wish to disrespect=
anyone else who deserves the title of founding member by my omission. I ju=
st don=92t remember that well. Time
is not my strong suit. I remember how and why. Everything else is a blur. =
I use computers to deal with who, what, when, where, which, etc. How and wh=
y, I remember compulsively.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Just know that Lawrence is not the only founding member of =
the KLI.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">There have been a number of artists who have offered their =
craft to the KLI. One of them invented the KLI=92s logo. Neither Marc Orkan=
d nor Paramount was not involved in that project. Lawrence asked for someth=
ing that suggested the trefoil that
belongs to Paramount, but would be sufficiently different from it to avoid=
issues of copyright, and was very happy with what the artist came up with.=
He could name the artist. I can=92t. It was done within the first decade o=
f the KLI, perhaps in the latter half
of that decade.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">HoD Qanqor and Seqram attended the one and only Klingon cam=
p (I think in Minnesota) the year before qep=92a=92 wa=92DIch =97 the endea=
vor of a competing Klingon Language organization that did not survive. That=
was intended to be an annual event, but it
didn=92t pan out. At the time, HoD Qanqor was the only individual in the 2=
0th century on Earth who could speak the language. Seqram was jealous, sinc=
e he could already speak over a dozen languages, most of which were either =
=93dead=94 or artificial, so at qep=92a=92
wa=92DIch, he, too, could speak the language and the rest of us gawked, an=
d pulled out our dictionaries a lot.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">By qep=92a=92 cha=92DIch several of us could haltingly spea=
k the language, pulling out our dictionaries a lot. Especially once Qov sho=
wed up, having memorized all the words the rest of us hadn=92t gotten aroun=
d to learning yet. We call them =93Qov words=94.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">And ghuyDo=92 wa=92, who also memorized the entire vocabula=
ry=85 and the entire taH pagh taHbe=92 monologue spoken so fast it was pain=
ful to attempt to parse. (For me, anyway.)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Seqram accidentally invented the word for =93armpit=94, whi=
ch was eventually turned into an actual canon word by Okrand, as a joke. Se=
qram had created it as an example of why we should not make up words, and s=
omeone missed the point and added it to
their dictionary. A year later, the person who made the mistake claimed it=
was a canon word, though he couldn=92t remember the source. Extensive rese=
arch of the archives (by ghunchu=92wI=92) revealed the origin and we shared=
it with Marc Okrand as a joke, whereupon
he gleefully explained that it really was the word for =93armpit=94. And p=
oof! He waves his magic wand, and it=92s an official word.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I accidentally gave an existing word a new definition becau=
se of an alignment error in the copy of my dictionary that I gave to Okrand=
, and he turned into canon in the word list at the end of one of his later =
books. Klingon for the Galactic Traveler,
maybe? I don=92t have them with me.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">There are words like {yID} - =93to be Jewish=94, which are =
NOT canon words, and continue to exist as jokes, very persistently explaine=
d to NOT be canon words, every time they are used.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">There has never been an instance where anyone except Marc O=
krand has invented a word and then, without Marc eventually declaring it ca=
non, it became canon.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">He has granted several of us a one-time privilege to ask fo=
r a word from Maltz. I was offered that, and instead of coming up with some=
thing, I just passed forward a request from someone else on this list for w=
ords for =93top=94 and =93bottom=94, since
that seemed like a more useful word than anything I could come up with on =
short notice. Each of the =93Friends of Maltz=94 was granted this privilege=
for life-time contributions to the language.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Marc Okrand is a kind, gracious man who guards his privacy,=
and we are happy to respect that privacy as a sign of respect for the gift=
he gave us. He was hired to coach actors to dub gibberish for a movie. He =
came up with the idea of inventing
an entire language. That choice on his part was the spark that made all of=
this happen.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">And it is magical how far it has gone from there.</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:s=
eparate; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Helvetica; font-style:normal; font-v=
ariant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:norma=
l; orphans:2; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; wid=
ows:2; word-spacing:0px">
<div class=3D"">pItlh</div>
<div class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Oct 30, 2015, at 1:14 PM, qurgh lungqIj <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:qurgh@wizage.net" class=3D"">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 30, 2015 at 12:49 PM, qunnoQ HoD <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">mihko=
un@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">i just read this link,and unfortunately it doesn't provide =
direct answers - or any answers at all - to the aforementioned questions. t=
hank you very much though !<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It seemed to answer your first question:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">how long afte=
r the creation of klingon language was the KLI formed ?<br class=3D"">
</span><br class=3D"">
The language (dictionary) came out in <span class=3D"" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Ubuntu,sans-serif; font-size:13px; line-height:18.5714px">1985 and th=
e KLI started in </span><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Ubuntu,s=
ans-serif; font-size:13px; line-height:18.5714px">1992,
so that would be 1992-1985 =3D 7 years after</span></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""> </div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
from what i read two more questions arose.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
it mentioned an opera 'u' written and performed in klingon. where can i fin=
d the text of this opera ?<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The text of the opera 'u' became the text of the paq'batlh.=
That's the closest you'll be able to get right now. </div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
did okrand know any of the founding members of KLI,prior to the creation of=
the language ?<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Only Lawrence can probably answer that question as he was t=
he only founding member. </div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""> </div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">has any of the founding members of KLI created =
vocabulary and/or grammar,which is considered canon ?<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
No. Only Okrand has created vocabulary and/or grammar that is considered ca=
non. Although he may have based his ideas on other people's ideas/requests.=
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
with regards to the KLI logo/emblem. (the spiked wheel,with the three blade=
s within it..)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
who designed it ?<br class=3D"">
how long has it been the logo of KLI ?<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">For as long as I can remember (20+ years?)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""> </div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border=
-left-width:1px; border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204); border-left-style:soli=
d; padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">has Okrand had anything to do with its creation=
?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Unlikely.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">qurgh</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
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