[101467] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Qualification
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Oct 22 13:14:09 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:13:50 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLCTG3cauERxjQE2-mE0FSt6+HSKMndH8quH0Y=FGrnFg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============2014608463809176789==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DEFFE99B-E3F5-450D-8311-58F1D65949A2"
--Apple-Mail=_DEFFE99B-E3F5-450D-8311-58F1D65949A2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
Others have explained this differently enough that I feel a need to give =
a more core-accurate reply.
Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t have tense. It=E2=80=99s not really true that it =
=E2=80=9Cuses aspect suffixes to accomplish something akin to tenses=E2=80=
=9D. It uses aspect suffixes to accomplish something akin to aspect. =
There are only two things that convey tense in Klingon:
1. Context.
2. Time stamps.
Typically, context is established with time stamps, though it can also =
be normal, obvious context.=20
wa=E2=80=99Hu=E2=80=99 qayaj. I understood you yesterday.
DaHjaj qayaj. I understand you today.
wa=E2=80=99leS qayaj. I will understand you tomorrow.
If you speak about a topic with an obvious time reference, that =
establishes the tense of everything you say, until you either obviously =
change contexts with another obvious time setting, or you use a time =
stamp to establish a new time reference, whereupon any new thing said =
will take that anchor for the time setting, until some other context or =
time stamp changes the time reference.
Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t lose much for it=E2=80=99s lack of tense, since =
that only gives you three very vague time references to now, before now, =
and after now. Klingon has a much richer set of temporal references, and =
once those are established, there=E2=80=99s no need frittering away your =
time and effort keeping track of what tense you should be using. The =
sort of arguments English speakers have with each other as to whether or =
not you should have used a particular tense for a particular verb is the =
kind of thing one would be killed for on Qo=E2=80=99noS.
So, Klingons don=E2=80=99t have anything to do with tense. It=E2=80=99s =
a stupid waste of time and brain power. Early Klingon linguists who =
tried to introduce tense into the language were filtered out of the gene =
pool.
As for why one would say, {nepwI=E2=80=99 Daba=E2=80=99!} instead of =
{bInepba=E2=80=99taH!}, why does ANYBODY choose one phrasing over =
another. It=E2=80=99s just the way he wanted to say it that time. =
Don=E2=80=99t try to put too much weight on it.
Maybe he just wanted to use {Daba=E2=80=99} because it=E2=80=99s one of =
the few examples of a Klingon word that could have two radically =
different meanings. Either =E2=80=9CYou obviously behave in the manner =
of X=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYou sit it.=E2=80=9D The second example =
doesn=E2=80=99t immediately make a lot of sense to me, but it COULD be a =
poetic way of describing something about nostrils.
Perhaps in his region, {nepwI=E2=80=99} is a common insulting term and =
he likes using it. He=E2=80=99s not asserting that you simply are lying =
now, or have, from time to time, lied, but instead prefers to make a =
statement about the core of your being, the defining feature of your =
identity, and the ethical foundation of your every act.
Or not.
The problem is, most canon examples from Okrand lack context, which is =
pretty ironic considering how often he reminds us of the importance of =
context.
Which is why translations appear to be so arbitrary in terms of tense. =
We get a brief translation with no context from which to know what the =
tense should be, so the translator has to just make one up; choose one =
at random.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:08 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> in hol.kag.org <http://hol.kag.org/>,as well as in TKD,on =
qualification the following examples are given :
>=20
> jIyajchu' I understand clearly (yaj understand)
> baHchu' he/she fired (the torpedo) perfectly (baHfire [a torpedo]
>=20
> i would like to ask why in the second example the translation is given =
in the past tense,while in the first example the translation is in the =
present tense.
>=20
>=20
> secondly,in hol.kag.org <http://hol.kag.org/> on the same subject, the =
following example is given :
>=20
> nepwI' Daba' he/she is obviously lying (nepwI' liar,Da act in the =
manner of, behave as).=20
>=20
> the meaning of the sentence {nepwI' Daba'} is given as <<he/she is =
obviously lying>>. but as it is described,the literal meaning would be =
closer to <<she is obviously behaving as liar>> wouldn't simply {nepba'} =
be much closer to the <<he/she is obviously lying>> ?
>=20
> qunnoQ
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_DEFFE99B-E3F5-450D-8311-58F1D65949A2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Others have explained this differently enough =
that I feel a need to give a more core-accurate reply.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t =
have tense. It=E2=80=99s not really true that it =E2=80=9Cuses aspect =
suffixes to accomplish something akin to tenses=E2=80=9D. It uses aspect =
suffixes to accomplish something akin to aspect. There are only two =
things that convey tense in Klingon:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. Context.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. Time stamps.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Typically, context is established with =
time stamps, though it can also be normal, obvious =
context. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">wa=E2=80=99Hu=E2=80=99 qayaj. I understood you =
yesterday.</div><div class=3D"">DaHjaj qayaj. I understand you =
today.</div><div class=3D"">wa=E2=80=99leS qayaj. I will understand you =
tomorrow.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
you speak about a topic with an obvious time reference, that establishes =
the tense of everything you say, until you either obviously change =
contexts with another obvious time setting, or you use a time stamp to =
establish a new time reference, whereupon any new thing said will take =
that anchor for the time setting, until some other context or time stamp =
changes the time reference.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t lose much for it=E2=80=99s lack of =
tense, since that only gives you three very vague time references to =
now, before now, and after now. Klingon has a much richer set of =
temporal references, and once those are established, there=E2=80=99s no =
need frittering away your time and effort keeping track of what tense =
you should be using. The sort of arguments English speakers have with =
each other as to whether or not you should have used a particular tense =
for a particular verb is the kind of thing one would be killed for on =
Qo=E2=80=99noS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So, Klingons don=E2=80=99t have anything to do with tense. =
It=E2=80=99s a stupid waste of time and brain power. Early Klingon =
linguists who tried to introduce tense into the language were filtered =
out of the gene pool.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As for why one would say, {nepwI=E2=80=99 Daba=E2=80=99!} =
instead of {bInepba=E2=80=99taH!}, why does ANYBODY choose one phrasing =
over another. It=E2=80=99s just the way he wanted to say it that time. =
Don=E2=80=99t try to put too much weight on it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe he just wanted to use {Daba=E2=80=99=
} because it=E2=80=99s one of the few examples of a Klingon word that =
could have two radically different meanings. Either =E2=80=9CYou =
obviously behave in the manner of X=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYou sit it.=E2=80=
=9D The second example doesn=E2=80=99t immediately make a lot of sense =
to me, but it COULD be a poetic way of describing something about =
nostrils.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Perhaps in his region, {nepwI=E2=80=99} is a common insulting =
term and he likes using it. He=E2=80=99s not asserting that you simply =
are lying now, or have, from time to time, lied, but instead prefers to =
make a statement about the core of your being, the defining feature of =
your identity, and the ethical foundation of your every act.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Or not.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The problem is, most =
canon examples from Okrand lack context, which is pretty ironic =
considering how often he reminds us of the importance of =
context.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Which =
is why translations appear to be so arbitrary in terms of tense. We get =
a brief translation with no context from which to know what the tense =
should be, so the translator has to just make one up; choose one at =
random.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 22, 2015, at 11:08 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">in <a href=3D"http://hol.kag.org/" =
class=3D"">hol.kag.org</a>,as well as in TKD,on qualification the =
following examples are given :<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
=09
=09
=09
=09
=09
<div class=3D"">jIyajchu' I understand clearly (yaj =
understand)<br class=3D"">baHchu' he/she fired (the torpedo) perfectly =
(baHfire [a torpedo]<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">i =
would like to ask why in the second example the translation is given in =
the past tense,while in the first example the translation is in the =
present tense.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">secondly,in <a href=3D"http://hol.kag.org/" =
class=3D"">hol.kag.org</a> on the same subject, the following example is =
given :<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">nepwI' Daba' he/she is obviously =
lying (nepwI' liar,Da act in the manner of, behave as). <br class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">the meaning of the sentence {nepwI' =
Daba'} is given as <<he/she is obviously lying>>. but as it =
is described,the literal meaning would be closer to <<she is =
obviously behaving as liar>> wouldn't simply {nepba'} be much =
closer to the <<he/she is obviously lying>> ?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">qunnoQ<br class=3D"">
=09
</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_DEFFE99B-E3F5-450D-8311-58F1D65949A2--
--===============2014608463809176789==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============2014608463809176789==--
