[101440] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: ghoD
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Tue Oct 20 18:17:02 2015
In-Reply-To: <28834841.100754.1445377316430.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2015 00:16:45 +0200
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: Anthony Appleyard <a.appleyard@btinternet.com>, tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Just a small correction to the word order, your second sentence should be:
{tlhInganpu' wIleghlu'}
=E2=80=98we Klingons are being seen=E2=80=99
Compare with the frequent construction {X tu'lu'} =E2=80=98there is/are X=
=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 an
exact counterpart of the Swedish =E2=80=98der finns X=E2=80=99 (sp?), or "X=
is found" /
"someone finds X".
BTW, I've never seen any construction like the Klingon -lu' construction in
any natural Terran language, in terms of indefinite subject + changed
agreement pattern + no word order change. I'm not even sure how to call it,
it's neither a passive, nor a normal impersonal construction, nor an
antipassive or anticausative. Fascinating.
This might be one of the few things in Klingon that are truly unique to it,
without any parallel in a natural language.
- Andr=C3=A9
On Oct 20, 2015 23:42, "Anthony Appleyard" <a.appleyard@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> Compare:-
>
> {wIlegh tlhInganpu'} :: we Klingons see :: Latin [Tlingani videmus]
>
> {wIlegh*lu'* tlhInganpu'} :: one sees us Klingons / we Klingons are seen
> :: Latin [Tlingani videmu*r*]
>
> This "impersonal" looks somewhat like a Latin passive in verb suffix use,
> but like an impersonal in the word order.
>
> wide =3D legh, mus =3D wI, r =3D lu'
>
> *From:* Will Martin [mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
>
> *Sent:* October 20, 2015 8:45
> *To:* tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: ghoD
>
> I=E2=80=99m sure this was discussed to death years ago, but it occurs to =
me that
> {lu-} is the only prefix used with {-lu=E2=80=99} that indicates a direct=
object.
> It=E2=80=99s further interesting by reversing the number of the subject a=
nd object,
> since the unknown subject is singular, but the known object is plural,
> while the prefix suggests the opposite.
>
> It=E2=80=99s one of the weird exceptions that makes the rule, I suppose..=
.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">Just a small correction to the word order, your second sente=
nce should be:</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">{tlhInganpu' wIleghlu'}<br>
=E2=80=98we Klingons are being seen=E2=80=99</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Compare with the frequent construction {X tu'lu'} =
=E2=80=98there is/are X=E2=80=99 =E2=80=93 an exact counterpart of the Swed=
ish =E2=80=98der finns X=E2=80=99 (sp?), or "X is found" / "=
someone finds X".<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">BTW, I've never seen any construction like the Klingon -=
lu' construction in any natural Terran language, in terms of indefinite=
subject + changed agreement pattern + no word order change. I'm not ev=
en sure how to call it, it's neither a passive, nor a normal impersonal=
construction, nor an antipassive or anticausative. Fascinating.<br>
This might be one of the few things in Klingon that are truly unique to it,=
without any parallel in a natural language.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">- Andr=C3=A9 </p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 20, 2015 23:42, "Anthony Appleyard&q=
uot; <<a href=3D"mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com">a.appleyard@btintern=
et.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><blockquote style=3D"margin-right:0px;margin-left:15px"><div>Compare:-<br=
><br>{wIlegh tlhInganpu'} :: we Klingons see<span></span> :: Latin [Tli=
ngani videmus]<br><br>{wIlegh<u>lu'</u> tlhInganpu'} :: one sees us=
Klingons / we Klingons are seen :: Latin [Tlingani videm<span>u<u>r</u>]<b=
r><br>This "impersonal" looks somewhat like a Latin passive in ve=
rb suffix use, but like an impersonal in the word order. <br><br>wide =3D l=
egh, mus =3D wI, r =3D lu'<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><br><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif&quo=
t;" lang=3D"EN-US"></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:"Tahoma","sans-serif"" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b=
> Will Martin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>] <br><div><div style=3D"border:no=
ne;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma",&qu=
ot;sans-serif"" lang=3D"EN-US"><b>Sent:</b> October 20, 2015 8:45<br><=
b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhinga=
n-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the=
Day: ghoD<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></=
u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m sure this was discusse=
d to death years ago, but it occurs to me that {lu-} is the only prefix use=
d with {-lu=E2=80=99} that indicates a direct object. It=E2=80=99s further =
interesting by reversing the number of the subject and object, since the un=
known subject is singular, but the known object is plural, while the prefix=
suggests the opposite.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It=E2=80=99s one of the=
weird exceptions that makes the rule, I suppose...<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<br></div></blockquote><br><p></p><br>_____________________________________=
__________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
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