[101352] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Sun Oct 11 11:24:45 2015
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
X-Google-Original-From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+fGGWjkor59KzvX2uxLC=DsTK0HropHOGjgKTu5cPtPw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 11:24:17 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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{vIrI'} means "I hail him/her/it/them". Unfortunately, that's not what I mea=
nt to say. In a typically stupid "I don't need to look that up" moment, I ch=
ose {rI'} when I meant {tI'}.
So, it should read {vItI'}.
Sent from my iPad
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
> On Oct 11, 2015, at 11:10 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> >(Sor Hap) (bIQ Duj) =3D (matter of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden s=
hip
>=20
> does this mean that nouns are always (whenever they are stringed together)=
grouped in pairs ? i.e. the first two,then the next two etc ?
>=20
> > tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Kling=
on's foot
> > qam Hom =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's bon=
e
> > baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot
> > tlhIngan baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (thi=
s sounds a little weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.
> > You are a human foot surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human SoH
>=20
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh what is {vIrI'} ? i can't f=
ind its meaning..=20
> And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of language=
(real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that language,and not jus=
t try to replace words from his native language to the one he's trying to le=
arn. That is why i have bought every Klingon book i managed to find,hoping t=
hat as soon as i learn the basics,i will start reading -even at a very slow p=
ace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel>> of the Klingon.
>=20
> qunnoQ
>=20
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers and lessons here, I ju=
st want to open your mind to principles that are mentioned in The Klingon Di=
ctionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people learning the language.
>>=20
>> Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize t=
hat replacing English words with Klingon words and changing the word order i=
s not always going to translate an English sentence into a Klingon sentence v=
ery well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to the words in an Engli=
sh sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.
>>=20
>> In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now wri=
ting somewhat of an example of how a person speaking English can easily pack=
a lot more than that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D they taught you about=
in high school, which is supposed to be the official boundary of what const=
itutes a sentence into a sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensiv=
e use of =E2=80=9Chelper words=E2=80=9D, can pack quite a bit more than a si=
ngle thought into a sentence and just keep on going, sucking in new ideas th=
at have nothing to do with the original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D tha=
t a sentence was supposed to have contained, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccot=
tage cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed quite believably within the bound=
aries of the dream to be the secret of the Universe =E2=80=94 the answer to a=
ll questions =E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the s=
entence I started writing to illustrate one of the differences between Kling=
on grammar and English grammar.
>>=20
>> My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence than any sel=
f-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one Klingon=
sentence.
>>=20
>> So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D ther=
e is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI=E2=80=
=99 jIH. Human jIH.}
>>=20
>> Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human=
qamDu=E2=80=99 vIrI=E2=80=99.
>>=20
>> It makes for very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial c=
hallenge of packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure out=
from context what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expect to h=
old a Klingon=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one thought into a se=
ntence. He might hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t s=
peak long, complex sentences to a Klingon.
>>=20
>> In TKD, Okrand also points out that in Klingon, it is much more common th=
an in English to repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English we ten=
d to replace all but the first mention with pronouns. The point here is that=
Klingon sentences tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t padding t=
hem all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the opport=
unity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or what you are talking about=
.
>>=20
>> Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to d=
estroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon clearly.=
>>=20
>> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
>> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a spa=
ce ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should h=
ave written it.
>>>=20
>>> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper b=
ook ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ; why p=
lace a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?
>>>=20
>>> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH. =20
>>>=20
>>> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i wri=
te it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>>>=20
>>> qunnoQ
>>>=20
>>>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote=
:
>>>> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
>>>> >
>>>> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surge=
on
>>>> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>>>>=20
>>>> maj!
>>>>=20
>>>> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
>>>> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>>>>=20
>>>> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be use=
d to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you to=
do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence which fol=
lows that was very well done. majQa'!
>>>>=20
>>>> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a=
little mixed up.
>>>>=20
>>>> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), th=
e second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it in=
some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun is o=
wner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is made ou=
t of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the first noun=
. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the point it's a f=
irst-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how we do it in E=
nglish, too and when you are putting two nouns together you can often (but n=
ot always) just put the English and Klingon in the same order (for possessio=
n we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that i=
s not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".
>>>>=20
>>>> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a "s=
teel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by). {yI=
n Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>>>>=20
>>>> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of th=
e foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon o=
f the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space", a "=
ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have instead me=
ant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumption that y=
ou meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then you're saying=
she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind. The descriptor g=
oes first followed by the thing being described. So {logh Duj} is "space sh=
ip".
>>>>=20
>>>> nav paq jIH'a'?
>>>>=20
>>>> janSIy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>=20
>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>{vIrI'} means "I hail him/her/it/them"=
. Unfortunately, that's not what I meant to say. In a typically stupid "I do=
n't need to look that up" moment, I chose {rI'} when I meant {tI'}.</div><di=
v id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">So, it s=
hould read {vItI'}.<br><br><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 2=
55, 0);">Sent from my iPad</span><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(=
255, 255, 255, 0);">lojmIt tI'wI' nuv</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 11, 2=
015, at 11:10 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkou=
n@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">(Sor Hap) (=
bIQ Duj) =3D (matter of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden ship<br><=
br></span></div>does this<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> mean that nouns are=
always (whenever they are stringed together) grouped in pairs ? i.e. the fi=
rst two,then the next two etc ?<br><br>></span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)"> tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Kli=
ngon's foot<br></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibr=
i","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">> qam Hom =E2=80=98o=
H =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's bone<br>> baS qam =E2=80=
=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot<br>> tlhIngan baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it i=
s a foot of a metallic Klingon (this sounds a little weird), or it is a Klin=
gon metallic foot.<br>> </span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">You are a h=
uman foot surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human SoH<br><br></span></div><span style=3D=
"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:rgb(31,73,125)"><span class=3D"im">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=
=98utlh </span>what is {vIrI'} ? i can't find its meaning.. <br></span></div=
><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">And yes,you are right ; in order for someone=
to learn any kind of language (real or constructed) he has to learn to thin=
k in that language,and not just try to replace words from his native languag=
e to the one he's trying to learn. That is why i have bought every Klingon b=
ook i managed to find,hoping that as soon as i learn the basics,i will start=
reading -even at a very slow pace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel=
>> of the Klingon.<br><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)">qunnoQ<br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct=
11, 2015 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D=
"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.c=
om</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word"><div>Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers an=
d lessons here, I just want to open your mind to principles that are mention=
ed in The Klingon Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people lear=
ning the language.</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon is a language, not a cod=
e. Implied in this, you need to realize that replacing English words with Kl=
ingon words and changing the word order is not always going to translate an E=
nglish sentence into a Klingon sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pa=
y less attention to the words in an English sentence and pay more attention t=
o its meaning.</div><div><br></div><div>In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to m=
ake the sentence I=E2=80=99m now writing somewhat of an example of how a per=
son speaking English can easily pack a lot more than that =E2=80=9Csingle th=
ought=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high school, which is supposed to be=
the official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into a sentence, but i=
n fact, English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chelper words=E2=80=9D,=
can pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just ke=
ep on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the original =E2=
=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sentence was supposed to have contained=
, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed q=
uite believably within the boundaries of the dream to be the secret of the U=
niverse =E2=80=94 the answer to all questions =E2=80=94 even though it has a=
bsolutely nothing to do with the sentence I started writing to illustrate on=
e of the differences between Klingon grammar and English grammar.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence t=
han any self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into o=
ne Klingon sentence.</div><div><br></div><div>So, if you want to say, =E2=80=
=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D there is no reason to not break that d=
own into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human jIH.}</div><div><=
br></div><div>Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99=
jIH. Human qamDu=E2=80=99 vIrI=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>It makes f=
or very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial challenge of p=
acking three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure out from context=
what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expect to hold a Klingon=
=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one thought into a sentence. He mi=
ght hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak long, c=
omplex sentences to a Klingon.</div><div><br></div><div>In TKD, Okrand also p=
oints out that in Klingon, it is much more common than in English to repeat t=
he same noun in a sentence, where in English we tend to replace all but the f=
irst mention with pronouns. The point here is that Klingon sentences tend to=
be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t padding them all that much to repea=
t a noun now and then, and it gives you the opportunity to be extremely clea=
r about exactly whom or what you are talking about.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to des=
troy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon clearly.</=
div><span class=3D""><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</div><div>Door Rep=
air Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div>On Oct 10, 2=
015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></span><div><div class=
=3D"h5"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>thanks for the corrections ! ye=
s indeed i tried to say that Qov is a space ship,but i got the word order wr=
ong ; but now i understand how i should have written it.<br><br></div>moving=
on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper book ?" bu=
t yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ; why plac=
e a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?<br><br></div>and to t=
ry to answer to the question : ghobe'. <span>qam HaqwI' SoH. <br><br>b=
ut if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it=
? "</span>ghobe'. <span>qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<br><br></span></div><div><=
span>qunnoQ<br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <span dir=3D"ltr">=
<<a href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank">kenjutsuka@live=
.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>>> H=
aqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?<br>
><br>
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surgeon=
<br>
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br>
<br>
</span>maj!<br>
<span><br>
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So<br>
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br>
<br>
</span>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot=
be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody t=
ells you to do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. T=
he sentence which follows that was very well done. majQa'!<br>
<span><br>
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH ! <br>
<br>
</span>Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have g=
otten a little mixed up.<br>
<br>
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the sec=
ond noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it in some=
way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun is o=
wner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is ma=
de out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the f=
irst noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the p=
oint it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactl=
y how we do it in English, too and when you are putting two nouns together y=
ou can often (but not always) just put the English and Klingon in the same o=
rder (for possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In=
those cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the w=
ords and insert "of".<br>
<br>
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a "s=
teel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by).=
{yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).<br>
<br>
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the foo=
t". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon o=
f the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space"=
, a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have i=
nstead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumpti=
on that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then=
you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind.&nb=
sp; The descriptor goes first followed by the thing being described. S=
o {logh Duj} is "space ship".<br>
<br>
nav paq jIH'a'?<br>
<div><div><br>
janSIy<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.o=
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rer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a>=
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list=
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arget=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br></=
div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>___________________________=
____________________<br>
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</div></blockquote></body></html>=
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