[101345] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Sat Oct 10 18:16:51 2015
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+zajYMXUP=6qZ6zis3Q5w7m2E8t8UqvQrwgHgKGBcfCw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:16:41 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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You=E2=80=99ve conquered SoH and are now onto interrogative =
=E2=80=93=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99. Have you noticed that =
=E2=80=93=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99 must go at the end of the verb to ask a =
question? And that in a sentence like tlhIngan SoH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? =
=E2=80=93 are you a Klingon?=E2=80=94it goes on the pronoun? =
That=E2=80=99s why I emphasize that jIH can mean =E2=80=9CI am=E2=80=9D =
so you think of it as a quasi-verb and know that it can take verb =
suffixes.
I want to caution you not to rely too heavily on boQwI=E2=80=99, not =
that it=E2=80=99s not an excellent program, but because it remembers =
things for you, and in order to have a conversation, you need to =
remember things for yourself. An excellent way to start remembering =
them is to make it harder to look them up than it is to simply remember =
them.=20
Piling up strings of nouns isn=E2=80=99t where I would have led you =
next. I would have settled for <Duj SoH> because to me a spaceship is =
the default kind of Duj, the others being qualified by other words. But =
that=E2=80=99s where you=E2=80=99ve gone, so let=E2=80=99s get this =
right.
A noun next to another noun in Klingon, <noun1> <noun2> always means =
=E2=80=9Cnoun1=E2=80=99s noun2=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe noun2 of =
noun1=E2=80=9D.
bIQ Duj =3D =E2=80=9Cwater=E2=80=99s vessel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cvessel of =
water=E2=80=9D -- this could equally well refer to a ship that travels =
ON water or one that is made of water, but without context a reasonable =
person is going to interpret it as a boat.
Sor Hap =3D =E2=80=9Ctree=E2=80=99s matter=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cmatter of a =
tree=E2=80=9D i.e. wood
Qov ghIch =3D =E2=80=9CQov=E2=80=99s nose=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cthe nose of =
Qov=E2=80=9D
When you pile up more than two nouns, there can be confusion as to which =
way they are supposed to be associated, but the second one is always =
possessed by or =E2=80=9Cof=E2=80=9D the first one. The last noun in =
the string is the thing, while the others describe it, or the other =
noun.
Sor Hap bIQ Duj =E2=80=9Ctree matter water vessel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =
you know this is a vessel. If you didn=E2=80=99t know how the world =
worked, you could group the nouns many ways:
((Sor Hap) bIQ) Duj --> ((tree matter) water) vessel =3D a vessel of =
wooden water?
(Sor (Hap bIQ)) Duj --> a tree=E2=80=99s water of matter vessel?
Sor ((Hap bIQ) Duj) --> a vessel of water=E2=80=99s matter belonging to =
a tree?
But not being a computer, you will probably choose the grouping:
(Sor Hap) (bIQ Duj) =3D (matter of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden =
ship
I=E2=80=99m going to give you one more word, =E2=80=98oH. It means =
=E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cit is=E2=80=9D so it=E2=80=99s the =
third person singular inanimate counterpart of jIH and SoH.
qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it=E2=80=99s a foot.
Given this information, how would you translate these?
tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH.
qam Hom =E2=80=98oH.
baS qam =E2=80=98oH.
tlhIngan baS qam =E2=80=98oH. (two possibilities)
Now see if you can group the nouns the way you want to say, =E2=80=9CYou =
are a human foot surgeon.=E2=80=9D
Just as in English, there are other tools that would make explicit that =
you meant either =E2=80=9Ca surgeon for human feet=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ca foot surgeon who is a human.=E2=80=9D You can learn those =
later.
- Qov
=20
From: HoD qunnoQ [mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com]=20
Sent: October 10, 2015 8:46
To: David Holt
Cc: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country =
Klingon Dialogue
=20
thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a =
space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i =
should have written it.
moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper =
book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ; =
why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?
and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH. =20
but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i =
write it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
qunnoQ
=20
On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
>
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a =
surgeon
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
maj!
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used =
to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you =
to do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence =
which follows that was very well done. majQa'!
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=20
Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a =
little mixed up.
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the =
second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it =
in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first =
noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second =
noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type =
used by the first noun. Other more complicated relationships are =
possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the =
way, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are =
putting two nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the =
English and Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in =
English, but nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that is not =
clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a =
"steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used =
by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the =
foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a =
"surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of =
outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You =
might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding =
under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If =
that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of =
ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first followed by the thing =
being described. So {logh Duj} is "space ship".
nav paq jIH'a'?
janSIy
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>You=E2=80=99ve conquered =C2=A0SoH and are now onto interrogative =
=E2=80=93=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99. =C2=A0Have you noticed that =
=E2=80=93=E2=80=98a=E2=80=99 must go at the end of the verb to ask a =
question? And that in a sentence like tlhIngan SoH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? =
=E2=80=93 are you a Klingon?=E2=80=94it goes on the pronoun?=C2=A0 =
That=E2=80=99s why I emphasize that jIH can mean =E2=80=9CI am=E2=80=9D =
so you think of it as a quasi-verb and know that it can take verb =
suffixes.<br><br>I want to caution you not to rely too heavily on =
boQwI=E2=80=99, not that it=E2=80=99s not an excellent program, but =
because it remembers things for you, and in order to have a =
conversation, you need to remember things for yourself.=C2=A0 An =
excellent way to start remembering them is to make it harder to look =
them up than it is to simply remember them. <br><br>Piling up strings of =
nouns isn=E2=80=99t where I would have led you next. I would have =
settled for <Duj SoH> because to me a spaceship is the default =
kind of Duj, the others being qualified by other words. But =
that=E2=80=99s where you=E2=80=99ve gone, so let=E2=80=99s get this =
right.<br><br>A noun next to another noun in Klingon, <noun1> =
<noun2> always means =E2=80=9Cnoun1=E2=80=99s noun2=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cthe noun2 of noun1=E2=80=9D.<br><br>bIQ Duj =3D =
=E2=80=9Cwater=E2=80=99s vessel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cvessel of =
water=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 -- this could equally well refer to a ship that =
travels ON water or one that is made of water, but without context a =
reasonable person is going to interpret it as a boat.<br><br>Sor Hap =3D =
=E2=80=9Ctree=E2=80=99s matter=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cmatter of a =
tree=E2=80=9D i.e. wood<br><br>Qov ghIch =3D =E2=80=9CQov=E2=80=99s =
nose=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cthe nose of Qov=E2=80=9D<br><br>When you pile up =
more than two nouns, there can be confusion as to which way they are =
supposed to be associated, but the second one is always possessed by or =
=E2=80=9Cof=E2=80=9D the first one.=C2=A0 The last noun in the string is =
the thing, while the others describe it, or the other noun.<br><br>Sor =
Hap bIQ Duj=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Ctree matter water vessel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 =
you know this is a vessel.=C2=A0 If you didn=E2=80=99t know how the =
world worked, you could group the nouns many ways:<br><br>((Sor Hap) =
bIQ) Duj --> =C2=A0((tree matter) water) vessel =3D a vessel of =
wooden water?<br>(Sor (Hap bIQ)) Duj --> a tree=E2=80=99s water of =
matter vessel?<br>Sor ((Hap bIQ) Duj) --> a vessel of water=E2=80=99s =
matter belonging to a tree?<br><br>But not being a computer, you will =
probably choose the grouping:<br>(Sor Hap) (bIQ Duj)=C2=A0 =3D (matter =
of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden ship<br><br>I=E2=80=99m going to =
give you one more word, =E2=80=98oH. It means =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Cit is=E2=80=9D so it=E2=80=99s the third person singular =
inanimate counterpart of jIH and SoH.<br><br>qam =E2=80=98oH =3D =
it=E2=80=99s a foot.<br><br>Given this information, how would you =
translate these?<br><br>tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH.<br>qam Hom =
=E2=80=98oH.<br>baS qam =E2=80=98oH.<br>tlhIngan baS qam =
=E2=80=98oH.=C2=A0 (two possibilities)<br><br>Now see if you can group =
the nouns the way you want to say, =E2=80=9CYou are a human foot =
surgeon.=E2=80=9D<br><br>Just as in English, there are other tools that =
would make explicit that you meant either =E2=80=9Ca surgeon for human =
feet=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ca foot surgeon who is a human.=E2=80=9D You =
can learn those later.<br><br>- Qov<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> HoD qunnoQ =
[mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> October 10, 2015 =
8:46<br><b>To:</b> David Holt<br><b>Cc:</b> =
tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI =
The Undiscovered Country Klingon Dialogue<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>thanks for the =
corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a space ship,but i =
got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should have =
written it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>moving on to your new question,as i =
understand it,it asks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another =
question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ; why place a =
question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary =
?<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>and to try to answer to the question : =
ghobe'. <span class=3Dim>qam HaqwI' SoH. </span><br><br><span =
class=3Dim>but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot =
surgeon" how would i write it ? "</span>ghobe'. <span =
class=3Dim>qam HaqwI' Human SoH " =
?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
class=3Dim>qunnoQ</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sat, =
Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <<a =
href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" =
target=3D"_blank">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' =
SoH'a'?<br>><br>> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this =
means : "i'm a surgeon<br>> too. a foot surgeon. are you a =
trunk/body surgeon ?"<br><br>maj!<br><br>> i would like to give =
the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So<br>> maybe i =
would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br><br>Check what boQwI' =
says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used to answer a =
"yes" or "no" question. It is used when =
somebody tells you to do something and you refuse. Now look up =
{ghobe'}. The sentence which follows that was very well done. =
majQa'!<br><br>> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH =
! <br><br>Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other =
words may have gotten a little mixed up.<br><br>When you put two nouns =
together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the second noun is the =
thing being described and the first noun modifies it in some way. =
A common relationship between the two is that the first noun is owner of =
the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is made =
out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the =
first noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but =
the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this =
is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are putting two =
nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the English and =
Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in English, but =
nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that is not clear, it =
helps to reverse the order of the words and insert =
"of".<br><br>{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" =
(ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a "steel scalpel" (made =
of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by). =
{yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated =
relationship).<br><br>So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a =
"foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the foot". =
You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", =
or a "surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as =
a "ship kind of outer space", a "ship outer space", =
or an "outer space of a ship". You might have instead =
meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the =
assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If =
that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of =
ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first followed by the =
thing being described. So {logh Duj} is "space =
ship".<br><br>nav paq jIH'a'?<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>janSIy<br>_________________________________________=
______<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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