[101346] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sat Oct 10 19:15:08 2015
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:14:53 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+zajYMXUP=6qZ6zis3Q5w7m2E8t8UqvQrwgHgKGBcfCw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers and lessons here, I =
just want to open your mind to principles that are mentioned in The =
Klingon Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people learning =
the language.
Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize =
that replacing English words with Klingon words and changing the word =
order is not always going to translate an English sentence into a =
Klingon sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to =
the words in an English sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.
In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now =
writing somewhat of an example of how a person speaking English can =
easily pack a lot more than that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D they =
taught you about in high school, which is supposed to be the official =
boundary of what constitutes a sentence into a sentence, but in fact, =
English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chelper words=E2=80=9D, can =
pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just =
keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the =
original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sentence was supposed =
to have contained, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage cheese=E2=80=9D, =
which I once dreamed quite believably within the boundaries of the dream =
to be the secret of the Universe =E2=80=94 the answer to all questions =
=E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence =
I started writing to illustrate one of the differences between Klingon =
grammar and English grammar.
My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence than any =
self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one =
Klingon sentence.
So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D =
there is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon sentences. =
{HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human jIH.}
Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. =
Human qamDu=E2=80=99 vIrI=E2=80=99.
It makes for very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial =
challenge of packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to =
figure out from context what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t=
expect to hold a Klingon=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one =
thought into a sentence. He might hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a =
gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak long, complex sentences to a Klingon.
In TKD, Okrand also points out that in Klingon, it is much more common =
than in English to repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English =
we tend to replace all but the first mention with pronouns. The point =
here is that Klingon sentences tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=
=99t padding them all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it =
gives you the opportunity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or =
what you are talking about.
Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to =
destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon =
clearly.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a =
space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i =
should have written it.
>=20
> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a =
paper book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an =
interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that =
unnecessary ?
>=20
> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH. =20
>=20
> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i =
write it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>=20
> qunnoQ
>=20
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com =
<mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com>> wrote:
> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
> >
> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a =
surgeon
> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>=20
> maj!
>=20
> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>=20
> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be =
used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells =
you to do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence =
which follows that was very well done. majQa'!
>=20
> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=20
>=20
> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten =
a little mixed up.
>=20
> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), =
the second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies =
it in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first =
noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second =
noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type =
used by the first noun. Other more complicated relationships are =
possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the =
way, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are =
putting two nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the =
English and Klingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in =
English, but nothing in Klingon). In those cases where that is not =
clear, it helps to reverse the order of the words and insert "of".
>=20
> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a =
"steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used =
by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>=20
> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of =
the foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a =
"surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of =
outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You =
might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding =
under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If =
that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of =
ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first followed by the thing =
being described. So {logh Duj} is "space ship".
>=20
> nav paq jIH'a'?
>=20
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent =
answers and lessons here, I just want to open your mind to principles =
that are mentioned in The Klingon Dictionary, but tend to be glossed =
over by new people learning the language.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Klingon is a language, not a code. =
Implied in this, you need to realize that replacing English words with =
Klingon words and changing the word order is not always going to =
translate an English sentence into a Klingon sentence very well. =
Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to the words in an English =
sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to =
make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now writing somewhat of an example of how =
a person speaking English can easily pack a lot more than that =E2=80=9Csi=
ngle thought=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high school, which is =
supposed to be the official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into =
a sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chel=
per words=E2=80=9D, can pack quite a bit more than a single thought into =
a sentence and just keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have =
nothing to do with the original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a =
sentence was supposed to have contained, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccotta=
ge cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed quite believably within the =
boundaries of the dream to be the secret of the Universe =E2=80=94 the =
answer to all questions =E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing =
to do with the sentence I started writing to illustrate one of the =
differences between Klingon grammar and English grammar.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My point is, that =
English can pack much more into a sentence than any self-respecting =
Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one Klingon =
sentence.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, =
if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D there =
is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon sentences. =
{HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human jIH.}</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Or, if you wanted to make that other =
statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human qamDu=E2=80=99 vIrI=E2=80=99.</div><d=
iv class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It makes for very =
clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial challenge of =
packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure out from =
context what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expect to =
hold a Klingon=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one thought into =
a sentence. He might hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and =
don=E2=80=99t speak long, complex sentences to a Klingon.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In TKD, Okrand also =
points out that in Klingon, it is much more common than in English to =
repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English we tend to replace =
all but the first mention with pronouns. The point here is that Klingon =
sentences tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t padding them =
all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the =
opportunity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or what you are =
talking about.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill =
or what to destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak =
Klingon clearly.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =
=E2=80=98utlh</div><div class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired =
Honorably</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that =
Qov is a space ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i =
understand how i should have written it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it =
asks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another question arises.. the =
'a' is an interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't =
that unnecessary ?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>and to try to =
answer to the question : ghobe'. <span class=3D"im">qam HaqwI' =
SoH. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">but if wanted to write "no,you =
are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ? "</span>ghobe'. <span =
class=3D"im">qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"im">qunnoQ<br =
class=3D""></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, =
David Holt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D"">>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?<br =
class=3D"">
><br class=3D"">
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a =
surgeon<br class=3D"">
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>maj!<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". =
So<br class=3D"">
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It =
cannot be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when =
somebody tells you to do something and you refuse. Now look up =
{ghobe'}. The sentence which follows that was very well done. =
majQa'!<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH ! <br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may =
have gotten a little mixed up.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the =
second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it =
in some way. A common relationship between the two is that the =
first noun is owner of the second noun. But it may also be that =
the second noun is made out of the first noun. Or that second noun =
is the type used by the first noun. Other more complicated =
relationships are possible, but the point it's a first-noun kind of =
second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how we do it in English, =
too and when you are putting two nouns together you can often (but not =
always) just put the English and Klingon in the same order (for =
possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those =
cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the =
words and insert "of".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is =
a "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" =
(used by). {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated =
relationship).<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the =
foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a =
"surgeon of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind =
of outer space", a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a =
ship". You might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but =
I'm proceeding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a "space =
ship". If that's the case, then you're saying she's a kind of ship =
and the kind of ship is a space kind. The descriptor goes first =
followed by the thing being described. So {logh Duj} is "space =
ship".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
nav paq jIH'a'?<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br class=3D"">
janSIy<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
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class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
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