[101344] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (HoD qunnoQ)
Sat Oct 10 16:29:41 2015
In-Reply-To: <25F39FEF-1147-4F7C-8D09-CD8D972714A1@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 23:29:25 +0300
From: HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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>So, you might consider taking up these conventions commonly used here, but
rarely explained.
thanks for explaining all this to me ; i couldn't have known these
suggestions any other way. I will definitely correct my writing from now on=
.
qunnoQ
On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:09 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <
lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
> Some small notes:
>
> The written Klingon that we use here is a phonetic representation of
> speech. It is not a Klingon writing system. We tend to include punctuatio=
n
> to make meaning understood easier, but there are no guidelines for
> punctuation in The Klingon Dictionary, or any other publication authored =
by
> Dr. Marc Okrand. We=E2=80=99ve pretty much made up our own use of punctua=
tion. It
> wasn=E2=80=99t an intentional standard. It has just evolved over the year=
s.
>
> So, we use question marks because we want to. We don=E2=80=99t have to. W=
e just
> want to.
>
> Klingon questions are grammatically obvious enough that question marks ar=
e
> definitely unnecessary, but we use them because we are accustomed to usin=
g
> them. If you are writing to someone who speaks Klingon and you don=E2=80=
=99t want
> people who would see it who don=E2=80=99t speak Klingon to know that ther=
e=E2=80=99s a
> question there, leave out the question mark. The Klingon speaker will
> definitely understand that it is a question.
>
> Also, since the Romanized alphabet includes an apostrophe, which is
> remarkably similar to a single quote, a pair of which is remarkably simil=
ar
> to a double quote, we don=E2=80=99t use quotation marks with Klingon. We =
use << and
> >>.
>
> Why?
>
> Because we choose to. It makes it clearer. It works for us.
>
> And while I=E2=80=99m at it, you might notice that when we include Klingo=
n word,
> like {Qu=E2=80=99vatlh} in what is otherwise English speech, we use curly=
braces.
> Again, somebody just made that up and the rest of us liked it and started
> doing it. It works.
>
> So, you might consider taking up these conventions commonly used here, bu=
t
> rarely explained.
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a spac=
e
> ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should
> have written it.
>
> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper
> book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ;
> why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?
>
> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH.
>
> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i writ=
e
> it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>
> qunnoQ
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>
>> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
>> >
>> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surgeo=
n
>> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>>
>> maj!
>>
>> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
>> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>>
>> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used
>> to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you =
to
>> do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence which
>> follows that was very well done. majQa'!
>>
>> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !
>>
>> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a
>> little mixed up.
>>
>> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the
>> second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it =
in
>> some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun =
is
>> owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is ma=
de
>> out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the firs=
t
>> noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the point
>> it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how =
we
>> do it in English, too and when you are putting two nouns together you ca=
n
>> often (but not always) just put the English and Klingon in the same orde=
r
>> (for possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those
>> cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the word=
s
>> and insert "of".
>>
>> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a
>> "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by)=
.
>> {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>>
>> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the
>> foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeo=
n
>> of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space"=
, a
>> "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have inste=
ad
>> meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumption
>> that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then you=
're
>> saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind. The
>> descriptor goes first followed by the thing being described. So {logh D=
uj}
>> is "space ship".
>>
>> nav paq jIH'a'?
>>
>> janSIy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>>So, you might consider taking up these conve=
ntions commonly used here, but rarely explained.<br><br></div>thanks for ex=
plaining all this to me ; i couldn't have known these suggestions any o=
ther way. I will definitely correct my writing from now on.<br><br></div>qu=
nnoQ<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 9:09 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Some small notes:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The written Klingon that we use here is a phonetic represe=
ntation of speech. It is not a Klingon writing system. We tend to include p=
unctuation to make meaning understood easier, but there are no guidelines f=
or punctuation in The Klingon Dictionary, or any other publication authored=
by Dr. Marc Okrand. We=E2=80=99ve pretty much made up our own use of punct=
uation. It wasn=E2=80=99t an intentional standard. It has just evolved over=
the years.</div><div><br></div><div>So, we use question marks because we w=
ant to. We don=E2=80=99t have to. We just want to.</div><div><br></div><div=
>Klingon questions are grammatically obvious enough that question marks are=
definitely unnecessary, but we use them because we are accustomed to using=
them. If you are writing to someone who speaks Klingon and you don=E2=80=
=99t want people who would see it who don=E2=80=99t speak Klingon to know t=
hat there=E2=80=99s a question there, leave out the question mark. The Klin=
gon speaker will definitely understand that it is a question.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Also, since the Romanized alphabet includes an apostrophe, whic=
h is remarkably similar to a single quote, a pair of which is remarkably si=
milar to a double quote, we don=E2=80=99t use quotation marks with Klingon.=
We use << and >>.</div><div><br></div><div>Why?=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Because we choose to. It makes it clearer. It works for us=
.</div><div><br></div><div>And while I=E2=80=99m at it, you might notice th=
at when we include Klingon word, like {Qu=E2=80=99vatlh} in what is otherwi=
se English speech, we use curly braces. Again, somebody just made that up a=
nd the rest of us liked it and started doing it. It works.</div><div><br></=
div><div>So, you might consider taking up these conventions commonly used h=
ere, but rarely explained.</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</div><div>Door Re=
pair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD q=
unnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gm=
ail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>thanks=
for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a space ship,b=
ut i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should have writ=
ten it.<br><br></div>moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it a=
sks "am i a paper book ?" but yet another question arises..=C2=A0=
the 'a' is an interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end=
? isn't that unnecessary ?<br><br></div>and to try to answer to the qu=
estion : ghobe'. <span>qam HaqwI' SoH.=C2=A0 <br><br>but if wanted =
to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ?=
"</span>ghobe'. <span>qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<br><br></=
span></div><div><span>qunnoQ<br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Ho=
lt <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_=
blank">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><span>>> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI'=
SoH'a'?<br>
><br>
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm=
a surgeon<br>
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br>
<br>
</span>maj!<br>
<span><br>
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon=
". So<br>
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br>
<br>
</span>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation.=C2=A0 =
It cannot be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question.=
=C2=A0 It is used when somebody tells you to do something and you refuse.=
=C2=A0 Now look up {ghobe'}.=C2=A0 The sentence which follows that was =
very well done. =C2=A0majQa'!<br>
<span><br>
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=C2=A0<br>
<br>
</span>Perfect use of {SoH}!=C2=A0 Though I think the other words may have =
gotten a little mixed up.<br>
<br>
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), th=
e second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it i=
n some way.=C2=A0 A common relationship between the two is that the first n=
oun is owner of the second noun.=C2=A0 But it may also be that the second n=
oun is made out of the first noun.=C2=A0 Or that second noun is the type us=
ed by the first noun.=C2=A0 Other more complicated relationships are possib=
le, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun.=C2=A0 By the w=
ay, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are putting t=
wo nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the English and K=
lingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in English, but noth=
ing in Klingon).=C2=A0 In those cases where that is not clear, it helps to =
reverse the order of the words and insert "of".<br>
<br>
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). =C2=A0{baS =
Haqtaj} is a "steel scalpel" (made of). =C2=A0{tlhIngan Duj} is a=
"Klingon ship" (used by). =C2=A0{yIn Quj} is the "game of l=
ife" (more complicated relationship).<br>
<br>
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or =
a "surgeon of the foot".=C2=A0 You are a "limb kind of surge=
on", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon of the limbs"=
.=C2=A0 And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space&qu=
ot;, a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship"=
;.=C2=A0 You might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", b=
ut I'm proceeding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a &qu=
ot;space ship".=C2=A0 If that's the case, then you're saying s=
he's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind.=C2=A0 The des=
criptor goes first followed by the thing being described.=C2=A0 So {logh Du=
j} is "space ship".<br>
<br>
nav paq jIH'a'?<br>
<div><div><br>
janSIy<br>
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