[23862] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Ryan Gallagher)
Thu Aug 28 14:22:52 2003
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:21:50 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
From: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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I agree totally with Mark. Are there chapters that would like an =
official, lettered house? If not, why is this policy being questioned? =
Informal houses are apparently common if you must have them. Mark said =
he's sounding like a lawyer- well, I CAN & OFTEN DO do the same. In =
fact (& those of you who were at the '02 Convention know this), if there =
is an issue about which I feel strongly, am uncertain, or am =
uncomfortable, I will let that be known, very vocally, especially on the =
legislative floor. I plan to go to the '04 convention & not knowing by =
then who else will want to, I plan to have 1 or 2 votes to use AGAINST =
changing this policy, & as long as I have at least one, I can speak. =
Debates like this get people thinking & produce ammunition for debates =
both informally (such as this) & formally (organizational conventions, =
congresses, national meetings, or whatever a particular group calls =
them).
Fraternally,
Michael Gallagher
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Mark Stratton=20
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
Brothers,
I'm responding to some of Dan's points below.
A. No amount of bylaws (either at the Fraternity level or Chapter =
level) will prevent the organization from being sued. So, if the goal =
of Risk Management is to manage risk, it doesn't seem wise to me to say, =
"hey, let's increase the risk we'll take as an Organization." The =
chapter would have a house (in Dan's scenario) and even members who =
don't LIVE there will pay the price if something happens to the Chapter. =
This is true in all cases - if the Chapter gets into trouble, it spills =
over to all the members (particularly if a charter is revoked). I don't =
see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is better for the FRATERNITY as an =
organization. It may be better for a CHAPTER given circumstances on a =
particular campus, true. Something that exposes the Fraternity to this =
type of liability, however, seems unwise to me.
B. If Brothers of a chapter move into a house that they rent, the =
responsibility for upkeep, maintenance, etc. falls to the OWNER(S) of =
the house, not the renters (now, I suppose there is a statute somewhere =
in some state or city that says otherwise). If the chapter, however, =
becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has the responsiblity for =
upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something happens at the house =
(someone falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in together to a =
house they rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still be sued. =
But were that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to say "We do not =
allow our chapters to own houses. In this particular case, members of a =
chapter, all college students, decided to be roommates. The lease is =
for those individual members, not the chapter or our organization." =
While that's not always an impervious defense, the policy nevertheless =
allows the Fraternity to have a measure of protection. (I am not a =
lawyer, though some of you will say I sound like one.) :-)
At the end of the day, Brothers, we must ask ourselves this question =
(really about this and other policies):
"Is changing the current policy in the best interest of Alpha Phi =
Omega?"
If the answer is no, and in this case my own opinion is that the =
answer is "no", then we do not change the policy. And I feel that way =
even if the University owns the property. Why? Because it is property =
that is leased to or in the name of the Chapter. Now, you may say, =
"what about conferences when chapters rent facilities for events?" =
That, to me, is an unavoidable circumstance - chapters need to rent =
space for events (projects, banquets, etc., all of which are in line =
with the goals and programs of the Fraternity. Living together, =
however, is not (to me) one of those "unavoidable circumstances" and, as =
such, there is no need for it.
This is, in my opinion, a very dangerours road we are heading down, =
and I hope we take the next exit ramp and get off it quickly. (What is =
with me and analogies today?) :-)
Fraternally,
Mark
Its not a forced decision, and its not unto the chapter to pay or =
support a house(campus provided or not). Bylaws can be made, etc.=20
My simplistic example. 4 Brothers, (any gender), decide to rent a =
house off campus. It's their choice, no one from the chapter is =
responsible, but those 4 individuals. They maintain upkeep, etc. If =
there is a function, and food is provided, that is not the house owners =
responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if it was taking =
place anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move out, or live =
separately, or else where, the house no longer remains the APO house. =
But current rules forbid something being called the APO house.
Some issues raised:
1) Parents may have concerns over co-ed living. We're all big boys =
and girls now. Secondly, no one is forced to live in a house of any =
kind, unless they want/can afford to.
2)Tensions. As I said before, we're all big boys and girls. Often =
enough, brothers end up rooming together. There are issues, and they =
deal with them.
3)Cleaning/Maintenance. Homeowners are responsible for their own =
house. If they choose to host a function (it is their choice, since they =
own/rent the house), they can ask for help cleaning, or refuse future =
hosting.
4) Taking away from service. This shouldn't be an issue. The meeting =
is going to be held. As is the function. But its much easier to plan =
this way, when you don't have to worry about the campus giving you =
problems over availability. IF having a house takes away from service, =
there are more serious problems to worry about.=20
5)Internal problems. This may fall under tensions, but we are all =
big boys and girls, as I've mentioned earlier. We're grown up enough to =
deal with a problem, and hopefully not let it fall into APO business. =
But as I also mentioned, brothers have dormed together before. So its =
nothing new.
I can try to answer/suggest more things further down the road, but =
that's all I have time for currently.
Thank you all for your input, I enjoy this debate.
In LFS,=20
Dan
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rachel=20
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
First of all, by stating "Chapter property" i was mostly referring =
to the property of the chapter located within the said office (ritual =
materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office things). Offices are =
not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither are all =
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by universities as =
a way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester Institute of =
Technology in Rochester, NY recently built very nice fraternity/sorority =
houses on its campus. Miami University in Oxford, Ohio's sorority =
housing is all located in sorority dorms on campus. So who do they call =
when the roof leaks? they call campus maintenance. The university =
takes some of the liability off of the fraternity itself because it can =
more easily regulate what goes on in these places--i.e. they must be in =
compliance with university rules on alcohol, etc. Heavy penalties can =
be placed on these greek organizations not only by the national =
organization itself, but the university as well. Also, since it is =
University property, it's a lot like deciding whether to live on or off =
campus. If you do not live there, you don't pay the extra 1,000 or =
whatever per semester. I'm not saying that this is what APhiO should =
have, but it is a situation that may work on campuses where it is =
available. =20
Rachel Kuhn
Section 89 staff
Zeta Delta alum
Graduate student, Syracuse University School of Education
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree totally with Mark. Are =
there chapters=20
that would like an official, lettered house? If not, why is this =
policy=20
being questioned? Informal houses are apparently common if you =
must have=20
them. Mark said he's sounding like a lawyer- well, I CAN & =
OFTEN DO do=20
the same. In fact (& those of you who were at the '02 =
Convention know=20
this), if there is an issue about which I feel strongly, am uncertain, =
or am=20
uncomfortable, I will let that be known, very vocally, especially on the =
legislative floor. I plan to go to the '04 convention & not =
knowing by=20
then who else will want to, I plan to have 1 or 2 votes to use AGAINST =
changing=20
this policy, & as long as I have at least one, I can speak. =
Debates=20
like this get people thinking & produce ammunition for debates both=20
informally (such as this) & formally (organizational conventions,=20
congresses, national meetings, or whatever a particular group calls=20
them).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fraternally,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michael Gallagher</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dmark_stratton@yahoo.com =
href=3D"mailto:mark_stratton@yahoo.com">Mark=20
Stratton</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DAPO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 28, 2003 =
12:56=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] APO House =
rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brothers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm responding to some of Dan's =
points=20
below.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A. No amount of bylaws (either =
at the=20
Fraternity level or Chapter level) will prevent the organization from =
being=20
sued. So, if the goal of Risk Management is to manage risk, it =
doesn't=20
seem wise to me to say, "hey, let's increase the risk we'll take as an =
Organization." The chapter would have a house (in Dan's =
scenario) and=20
even members who don't LIVE there will pay the price if something =
happens to=20
the Chapter. This is true in all cases - if the Chapter gets =
into=20
trouble, it spills over to all the members (particularly if a charter =
is=20
revoked). I don't see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is =
better for=20
the FRATERNITY as an organization. It may be better for a =
CHAPTER given=20
circumstances on a particular campus, true. Something that =
exposes the=20
Fraternity to this type of liability, however, seems unwise to=20
me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>B. If Brothers of a chapter =
move into a=20
house that they rent, the responsibility for upkeep, maintenance, etc. =
falls=20
to the OWNER(S) of the house, not the renters (now, I suppose there is =
a=20
statute somewhere in some state or city that says otherwise). If =
the=20
chapter, however, becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has =
the=20
responsiblity for upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something =
happens at the=20
house (someone falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in =
together=20
to a house they rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still =
be=20
sued. But were that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to =
say "We=20
do not allow our chapters to own houses. In this particular =
case,=20
members of a chapter, all college students, decided to be =
roommates. The=20
lease is for those individual members, not the chapter or our=20
organization." While that's not always an impervious defense, =
the policy=20
nevertheless allows the Fraternity to have a measure of =
protection. (I=20
am not a lawyer, though some of you will say I sound like one.) =20
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At the end of the day, Brothers, we =
must ask=20
ourselves this question (really about this and other =
policies):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Is changing the current policy in =
the best=20
interest of Alpha Phi Omega?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the answer is no, and in this case =
my own=20
opinion is that the answer is "no", then we do not change the =
policy. =20
And I feel that way even if the University owns the property. =
Why? =20
Because it is property that is leased to or in the name of the =
Chapter. =20
Now, you may say, "what about conferences when chapters rent =
facilities for=20
events?" That, to me, is an unavoidable circumstance - chapters =
need to=20
rent space for events (projects, banquets, etc., all of which are in =
line with=20
the goals and programs of the Fraternity. Living together, =
however, is=20
not (to me) one of those "unavoidable circumstances" and, as such, =
there is no=20
need for it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is, in my opinion, a very =
dangerours road we=20
are heading down, and I hope we take the next exit ramp and get off it =
quickly. (What is with me and analogies today?) =
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fraternally,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its not a forced decision, and its =
not unto the=20
chapter to pay or support a house(campus provided or not). Bylaws =
can be=20
made, etc. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My simplistic example. 4 Brothers, =
(any=20
gender), decide to rent a house off campus. It's their choice, =
no one=20
from the chapter is responsible, but those 4 individuals. They =
maintain=20
upkeep, etc. If there is a function, and food is provided, that is =
not the=20
house owners responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if =
it was=20
taking place anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move =
out, or=20
live separately, or else where, the house no longer remains the APO=20
house. But current rules forbid something being called the APO =
house.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some issues raised:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) Parents may have concerns over =
co-ed=20
living. We're all big boys and girls now. Secondly, no one is =
forced=20
to live in a house of any kind, unless they want/can afford =
to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2)Tensions. As I said before, we're =
all big=20
boys and girls. Often enough, brothers end up rooming together. =
There are=20
issues, and they deal with them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3)Cleaning/Maintenance. Homeowners =
are=20
responsible for their own house. If they choose to host a function =
(it is=20
their choice, since they own/rent the house), they can ask for help=20
cleaning, or refuse future hosting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4) Taking away from service. This =
shouldn't be=20
an issue. The meeting is going to be held. As is the function. But =
its much=20
easier to plan this way, when you don't have to worry about the =
campus=20
giving you problems over availability. IF having a house takes =
away=20
from service, there are more serious problems to worry about. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5)Internal problems. This may fall =
under=20
tensions, but we are all big boys and girls, as I've mentioned =
earlier.=20
We're grown up enough to deal with a problem, and hopefully not let =
it fall=20
into APO business. But as I also mentioned, brothers have dormed =
together=20
before. So its nothing new.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can try to answer/suggest more =
things further=20
down the road, but that's all I have time for =
currently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you all for your input, I =
enjoy this=20
debate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In LFS, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Diceangel99@yahoo.com=20
href=3D"mailto:iceangel99@yahoo.com">Rachel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DAPO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
=
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 28, =
2003 11:24=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] APO =
House=20
rule</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>First of all, by stating "Chapter property" i was mostly =
referring to=20
the property of the chapter located within the said office (ritual =
materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office things). =
Offices=20
are not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither =
are all=20
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by =
universities=20
as a way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester=20
Institute of Technology in Rochester, NY recently built very nice=20
fraternity/sorority houses on its campus. Miami University =
in=20
Oxford, Ohio's sorority housing is all located in sorority dorms =
on=20
campus. So who do they call when the roof leaks? they =
call=20
campus maintenance. The university takes some of the =
liability=20
off of the fraternity itself because it can more easily regulate =
what goes=20
on in these places--i.e. they must be in compliance with =
university rules=20
on alcohol, etc. Heavy penalties can be placed on these =
greek=20
organizations not only by the national organization itself, =
but the=20
university as well. Also, since it is University property, =
it's a=20
lot like deciding whether to live on or off campus. If you =
do not=20
live there, you don't pay the extra 1,000 or whatever per =
semester. =20
I'm not saying that this is what APhiO should have, but it is =
a=20
situation that may work on campuses where it is =
available. =20
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Rachel Kuhn</DIV>
<DIV>Section 89 staff</DIV>
<DIV>Zeta Delta alum</DIV>
<DIV>Graduate student, Syracuse University School of=20
=
Education</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML=
>
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