[23861] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Mark Stratton)
Thu Aug 28 12:58:40 2003
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:56:45 -0500
Reply-To: Mark Stratton <mark_stratton@yahoo.com>
From: Mark Stratton <mark_stratton@yahoo.com>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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Brothers,
I'm responding to some of Dan's points below.
A. No amount of bylaws (either at the Fraternity level or Chapter =
level) will prevent the organization from being sued. So, if the goal =
of Risk Management is to manage risk, it doesn't seem wise to me to say, =
"hey, let's increase the risk we'll take as an Organization." The =
chapter would have a house (in Dan's scenario) and even members who =
don't LIVE there will pay the price if something happens to the Chapter. =
This is true in all cases - if the Chapter gets into trouble, it spills =
over to all the members (particularly if a charter is revoked). I don't =
see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is better for the FRATERNITY as an =
organization. It may be better for a CHAPTER given circumstances on a =
particular campus, true. Something that exposes the Fraternity to this =
type of liability, however, seems unwise to me.
B. If Brothers of a chapter move into a house that they rent, the =
responsibility for upkeep, maintenance, etc. falls to the OWNER(S) of =
the house, not the renters (now, I suppose there is a statute somewhere =
in some state or city that says otherwise). If the chapter, however, =
becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has the responsiblity for =
upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something happens at the house =
(someone falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in together to a =
house they rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still be sued. =
But were that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to say "We do not =
allow our chapters to own houses. In this particular case, members of a =
chapter, all college students, decided to be roommates. The lease is =
for those individual members, not the chapter or our organization." =
While that's not always an impervious defense, the policy nevertheless =
allows the Fraternity to have a measure of protection. (I am not a =
lawyer, though some of you will say I sound like one.) :-)
At the end of the day, Brothers, we must ask ourselves this question =
(really about this and other policies):
"Is changing the current policy in the best interest of Alpha Phi =
Omega?"
If the answer is no, and in this case my own opinion is that the answer =
is "no", then we do not change the policy. And I feel that way even if =
the University owns the property. Why? Because it is property that is =
leased to or in the name of the Chapter. Now, you may say, "what about =
conferences when chapters rent facilities for events?" That, to me, is =
an unavoidable circumstance - chapters need to rent space for events =
(projects, banquets, etc., all of which are in line with the goals and =
programs of the Fraternity. Living together, however, is not (to me) =
one of those "unavoidable circumstances" and, as such, there is no need =
for it.
This is, in my opinion, a very dangerours road we are heading down, and =
I hope we take the next exit ramp and get off it quickly. (What is with =
me and analogies today?) :-)
Fraternally,
Mark
Its not a forced decision, and its not unto the chapter to pay or =
support a house(campus provided or not). Bylaws can be made, etc.=20
My simplistic example. 4 Brothers, (any gender), decide to rent a =
house off campus. It's their choice, no one from the chapter is =
responsible, but those 4 individuals. They maintain upkeep, etc. If =
there is a function, and food is provided, that is not the house owners =
responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if it was taking =
place anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move out, or live =
separately, or else where, the house no longer remains the APO house. =
But current rules forbid something being called the APO house.
Some issues raised:
1) Parents may have concerns over co-ed living. We're all big boys =
and girls now. Secondly, no one is forced to live in a house of any =
kind, unless they want/can afford to.
2)Tensions. As I said before, we're all big boys and girls. Often =
enough, brothers end up rooming together. There are issues, and they =
deal with them.
3)Cleaning/Maintenance. Homeowners are responsible for their own =
house. If they choose to host a function (it is their choice, since they =
own/rent the house), they can ask for help cleaning, or refuse future =
hosting.
4) Taking away from service. This shouldn't be an issue. The meeting =
is going to be held. As is the function. But its much easier to plan =
this way, when you don't have to worry about the campus giving you =
problems over availability. IF having a house takes away from service, =
there are more serious problems to worry about.=20
5)Internal problems. This may fall under tensions, but we are all big =
boys and girls, as I've mentioned earlier. We're grown up enough to deal =
with a problem, and hopefully not let it fall into APO business. But as =
I also mentioned, brothers have dormed together before. So its nothing =
new.
I can try to answer/suggest more things further down the road, but =
that's all I have time for currently.
Thank you all for your input, I enjoy this debate.
In LFS,=20
Dan
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Rachel=20
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
First of all, by stating "Chapter property" i was mostly referring =
to the property of the chapter located within the said office (ritual =
materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office things). Offices are =
not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither are all =
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by universities as =
a way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester Institute of =
Technology in Rochester, NY recently built very nice fraternity/sorority =
houses on its campus. Miami University in Oxford, Ohio's sorority =
housing is all located in sorority dorms on campus. So who do they call =
when the roof leaks? they call campus maintenance. The university =
takes some of the liability off of the fraternity itself because it can =
more easily regulate what goes on in these places--i.e. they must be in =
compliance with university rules on alcohol, etc. Heavy penalties can =
be placed on these greek organizations not only by the national =
organization itself, but the university as well. Also, since it is =
University property, it's a lot like deciding whether to live on or off =
campus. If you do not live there, you don't pay the extra 1,000 or =
whatever per semester. I'm not saying that this is what APhiO should =
have, but it is a situation that may work on campuses where it is =
available. =20
Rachel Kuhn
Section 89 staff
Zeta Delta alum
Graduate student, Syracuse University School of Education
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brothers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm responding to some of Dan's points=20
below.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A. No amount of bylaws (either at =
the=20
Fraternity level or Chapter level) will prevent the organization from =
being=20
sued. So, if the goal of Risk Management is to manage risk, it =
doesn't=20
seem wise to me to say, "hey, let's increase the risk we'll take as an=20
Organization." The chapter would have a house (in Dan's scenario) =
and even=20
members who don't LIVE there will pay the price if something happens to =
the=20
Chapter. This is true in all cases - if the Chapter gets into =
trouble, it=20
spills over to all the members (particularly if a charter is =
revoked). I=20
don't see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is better for the FRATERNITY =
as an=20
organization. It may be better for a CHAPTER given circumstances =
on a=20
particular campus, true. Something that exposes the Fraternity to =
this=20
type of liability, however, seems unwise to me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>B. If Brothers of a chapter move =
into a house=20
that they rent, the responsibility for upkeep, maintenance, etc. falls =
to the=20
OWNER(S) of the house, not the renters (now, I suppose there is a =
statute=20
somewhere in some state or city that says otherwise). If the =
chapter,=20
however, becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has the =
responsiblity=20
for upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something happens at the house =
(someone=20
falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in together to a house =
they=20
rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still be sued. But =
were=20
that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to say "We do not allow our =
chapters to own houses. In this particular case, members of a =
chapter, all=20
college students, decided to be roommates. The lease is for those=20
individual members, not the chapter or our organization." While =
that's not=20
always an impervious defense, the policy nevertheless allows the =
Fraternity to=20
have a measure of protection. (I am not a lawyer, though some of =
you will=20
say I sound like one.) :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At the end of the day, Brothers, we =
must ask=20
ourselves this question (really about this and other =
policies):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Is changing the current policy in the =
best=20
interest of Alpha Phi Omega?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the answer is no, and in this case =
my own=20
opinion is that the answer is "no", then we do not change the =
policy. And=20
I feel that way even if the University owns the property. =
Why? =20
Because it is property that is leased to or in the name of the =
Chapter. =20
Now, you may say, "what about conferences when chapters rent facilities =
for=20
events?" That, to me, is an unavoidable circumstance - chapters =
need to=20
rent space for events (projects, banquets, etc., all of which are in =
line with=20
the goals and programs of the Fraternity. Living together, =
however, is not=20
(to me) one of those "unavoidable circumstances" and, as such, there is =
no need=20
for it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is, in my opinion, a very =
dangerours road we=20
are heading down, and I hope we take the next exit ramp and get off it=20
quickly. (What is with me and analogies today?) =
:-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Fraternally,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its not a forced decision, and its =
not unto the=20
chapter to pay or support a house(campus provided or not). Bylaws can =
be made,=20
etc. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My simplistic example. 4 Brothers, =
(any gender),=20
decide to rent a house off campus. It's their choice, no one =
from the=20
chapter is responsible, but those 4 individuals. They maintain upkeep, =
etc. If=20
there is a function, and food is provided, that is not the house =
owners=20
responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if it was taking =
place=20
anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move out, or live =
separately,=20
or else where, the house no longer remains the APO house. But =
current=20
rules forbid something being called the APO house.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some issues raised:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1) Parents may have concerns over =
co-ed=20
living. We're all big boys and girls now. Secondly, no one is =
forced to=20
live in a house of any kind, unless they want/can afford =
to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2)Tensions. As I said before, we're =
all big boys=20
and girls. Often enough, brothers end up rooming together. There are =
issues,=20
and they deal with them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3)Cleaning/Maintenance. Homeowners =
are=20
responsible for their own house. If they choose to host a function (it =
is=20
their choice, since they own/rent the house), they can ask for help =
cleaning,=20
or refuse future hosting.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4) Taking away from service. This =
shouldn't be an=20
issue. The meeting is going to be held. As is the function. But its =
much=20
easier to plan this way, when you don't have to worry about the campus =
giving=20
you problems over availability. IF having a house takes away =
from=20
service, there are more serious problems to worry about. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5)Internal problems. This may fall =
under=20
tensions, but we are all big boys and girls, as I've mentioned =
earlier. We're=20
grown up enough to deal with a problem, and hopefully not let it fall =
into APO=20
business. But as I also mentioned, brothers have dormed together =
before. So=20
its nothing new.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I can try to answer/suggest more =
things further=20
down the road, but that's all I have time for currently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you all for your input, I enjoy =
this=20
debate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In LFS, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Diceangel99@yahoo.com =
href=3D"mailto:iceangel99@yahoo.com">Rachel</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DAPO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
=
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 28, =
2003 11:24=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] APO =
House=20
rule</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>First of all, by stating "Chapter property" i was mostly =
referring to=20
the property of the chapter located within the said office (ritual=20
materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office things). =
Offices are=20
not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither are all=20
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by =
universities as=20
a way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester =
Institute of=20
Technology in Rochester, NY recently built very nice =
fraternity/sorority=20
houses on its campus. Miami University in Oxford, Ohio's =
sorority=20
housing is all located in sorority dorms on campus. So who do =
they=20
call when the roof leaks? they call campus =
maintenance. The=20
university takes some of the liability off of the fraternity itself =
because=20
it can more easily regulate what goes on in these places--i.e. they =
must be=20
in compliance with university rules on alcohol, etc. =
Heavy=20
penalties can be placed on these greek organizations not only =
by the=20
national organization itself, but the university as well. =
Also, since=20
it is University property, it's a lot like deciding whether to live =
on or=20
off campus. If you do not live there, you don't pay the extra =
1,000 or=20
whatever per semester. I'm not saying that this is =
what APhiO=20
should have, but it is a situation that may work on campuses =
where it=20
is available. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Rachel Kuhn</DIV>
<DIV>Section 89 staff</DIV>
<DIV>Zeta Delta alum</DIV>
<DIV>Graduate student, Syracuse University School of=20
Education</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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