[23863] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Kenneth Hunter)
Thu Aug 28 23:11:42 2003
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:07:24 -0400
Reply-To: Kenneth Hunter <kwh_apo@hotmail.com>
From: Kenneth Hunter <kwh_apo@hotmail.com>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
In-Reply-To: <000d01c36d85$6fd6ec60$ee041e0a@iga.local>
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I'll admit that I haven't read every post on this thread yet (I just got
back from a job interview/chapter visiting trip in Middle Tennessee).
However, I feel that I can add some insight because of the fact that my
Chapter was the last Chapter to knowingly operate a House (we ceased in
fall 1998).
Maintaining a House, whether it be in the name of the Chapter (which
ours was back in the 60's and 70's) or in the name of Brother (which it
was from the 80s until 1998) is an undertaking that is in many ways
understated by the comments made by Mark and others. Yes, it did give
us a place for meetings and fellowships. Yes, it provided a gathering
place. However, in retrospect, we would have been better off abandoning
the house years earlier and focusing our attention on other matters.
My best personal reflection on the House was that it created a high
degree of insulation for our group that proved not to be beneficial. In
other words, it encouraged us to remain introverted. We did not grow as
a Chapter. The effort we put into maintaining our House did not take
away from our service, but it did give an excuse not to interact on
campus. After 8 years of Brotherhood, I have learned to accept the
philosophy that our Fraternity's place is on campus, interacting with as
much of the student population as possible.
As for the rest, it has all been discussed ad nauseum.
In Leadership, Friendship, and Service,
Kenneth Hunter
Alum, Tau Epsilon Chapter, Tennessee Technological University (Fall 1995
Pledge Class, Spring 2000 Graduating Class)
Section 70 Chair
-----Original Message-----
From: Alpha Phi Omega Discussion List [mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU]
On Behalf Of Mark Stratton
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:57 AM
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
Brothers,
I'm responding to some of Dan's points below.
A. No amount of bylaws (either at the Fraternity level or Chapter
level) will prevent the organization from being sued. So, if the goal
of Risk Management is to manage risk, it doesn't seem wise to me to say,
"hey, let's increase the risk we'll take as an Organization." The
chapter would have a house (in Dan's scenario) and even members who
don't LIVE there will pay the price if something happens to the Chapter.
This is true in all cases - if the Chapter gets into trouble, it spills
over to all the members (particularly if a charter is revoked). I don't
see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is better for the FRATERNITY as an
organization. It may be better for a CHAPTER given circumstances on a
particular campus, true. Something that exposes the Fraternity to this
type of liability, however, seems unwise to me.
B. If Brothers of a chapter move into a house that they rent, the
responsibility for upkeep, maintenance, etc. falls to the OWNER(S) of
the house, not the renters (now, I suppose there is a statute somewhere
in some state or city that says otherwise). If the chapter, however,
becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has the responsiblity for
upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something happens at the house
(someone falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in together to a
house they rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still be sued.
But were that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to say "We do not
allow our chapters to own houses. In this particular case, members of a
chapter, all college students, decided to be roommates. The lease is
for those individual members, not the chapter or our organization."
While that's not always an impervious defense, the policy nevertheless
allows the Fraternity to have a measure of protection. (I am not a
lawyer, though some of you will say I sound like one.) :-)
At the end of the day, Brothers, we must ask ourselves this question
(really about this and other policies):
"Is changing the current policy in the best interest of Alpha Phi
Omega?"
If the answer is no, and in this case my own opinion is that the answer
is "no", then we do not change the policy. And I feel that way even if
the University owns the property. Why? Because it is property that is
leased to or in the name of the Chapter. Now, you may say, "what about
conferences when chapters rent facilities for events?" That, to me, is
an unavoidable circumstance - chapters need to rent space for events
(projects, banquets, etc., all of which are in line with the goals and
programs of the Fraternity. Living together, however, is not (to me)
one of those "unavoidable circumstances" and, as such, there is no need
for it.
This is, in my opinion, a very dangerours road we are heading down, and
I hope we take the next exit ramp and get off it quickly. (What is with
me and analogies today?) :-)
Fraternally,
Mark
Its not a forced decision, and its not unto the chapter to pay or
support a house(campus provided or not). Bylaws can be made, etc.
My simplistic example. 4 Brothers, (any gender), decide to rent a house
off campus. It's their choice, no one from the chapter is responsible,
but those 4 individuals. They maintain upkeep, etc. If there is a
function, and food is provided, that is not the house owners
responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if it was taking
place anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move out, or live
separately, or else where, the house no longer remains the APO house.
But current rules forbid something being called the APO house.
Some issues raised:
1) Parents may have concerns over co-ed living. We're all big boys and
girls now. Secondly, no one is forced to live in a house of any kind,
unless they want/can afford to.
2)Tensions. As I said before, we're all big boys and girls. Often
enough, brothers end up rooming together. There are issues, and they
deal with them.
3)Cleaning/Maintenance. Homeowners are responsible for their own house.
If they choose to host a function (it is their choice, since they
own/rent the house), they can ask for help cleaning, or refuse future
hosting.
4) Taking away from service. This shouldn't be an issue. The meeting is
going to be held. As is the function. But its much easier to plan this
way, when you don't have to worry about the campus giving you problems
over availability. IF having a house takes away from service, there are
more serious problems to worry about.
5)Internal problems. This may fall under tensions, but we are all big
boys and girls, as I've mentioned earlier. We're grown up enough to deal
with a problem, and hopefully not let it fall into APO business. But as
I also mentioned, brothers have dormed together before. So its nothing
new.
I can try to answer/suggest more things further down the road, but
that's all I have time for currently.
Thank you all for your input, I enjoy this debate.
In LFS,
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Rachel <mailto:iceangel99@yahoo.com>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO House rule
First of all, by stating "Chapter property" i was mostly referring to
the property of the chapter located within the said office (ritual
materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office things). Offices are
not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither are all
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by universities as
a way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester Institute of
Technology in Rochester, NY recently built very nice fraternity/sorority
houses on its campus. Miami University in Oxford, Ohio's sorority
housing is all located in sorority dorms on campus. So who do they call
when the roof leaks? they call campus maintenance. The university
takes some of the liability off of the fraternity itself because it can
more easily regulate what goes on in these places--i.e. they must be in
compliance with university rules on alcohol, etc. Heavy penalties can
be placed on these greek organizations not only by the national
organization itself, but the university as well. Also, since it is
University property, it's a lot like deciding whether to live on or off
campus. If you do not live there, you don't pay the extra 1,000 or
whatever per semester. I'm not saying that this is what APhiO should
have, but it is a situation that may work on campuses where it is
available.
Rachel Kuhn
Section 89 staff
Zeta Delta alum
Graduate student, Syracuse University School of Education
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’ll admit that I =
haven’t read
every post on this thread yet (I just got back from a job =
interview/chapter
visiting trip in Middle Tennessee). However, I feel that I can add =
some
insight because of the fact that my Chapter was the last Chapter to =
knowingly
operate a House (we ceased in fall 1998).</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Maintaining a House, whether it be =
in the
name of the Chapter (which ours was back in the 60’s and =
70’s) or
in the name of Brother (which it was from the 80s until 1998) is an =
undertaking
that is in many ways understated by the comments made by Mark and =
others.
Yes, it did give us a place for meetings and fellowships. Yes, it
provided a gathering place. However, in retrospect, we would have =
been
better off abandoning the house years earlier and focusing our attention =
on
other matters.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My best personal reflection on the =
House
was that it created a high degree of insulation for our group that =
proved not
to be beneficial. In other words, it encouraged us to remain
introverted. We did not grow as a Chapter. The effort we put =
into
maintaining our House did not take away from our service, but it did =
give an
excuse not to interact on campus. After 8 years of Brotherhood, I =
have
learned to accept the philosophy that our Fraternity’s place is on
campus, interacting with as much of the student population as =
possible.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As for the rest, it has all been =
discussed
ad nauseum.</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In Leadership, Friendship, and =
Service,</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kenneth Hunter</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Alum, Tau Epsilon Chapter, =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Tennessee</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> Technological =
University
(Fall 1995 Pledge Class, Spring 2000 Graduating Class)</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Section 70 Chair</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Alpha Phi Omega =
Discussion
List [mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Mark Stratton<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Thursday,
August 28, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>11:57 =
AM</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [APO-L] APO =
House
rule</span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Brothers,</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I'm responding to some of =
Dan's
points below.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A. No amount of =
bylaws (either
at the Fraternity level or Chapter level) will prevent the organization =
from
being sued. So, if the goal of Risk Management is to manage risk, =
it
doesn't seem wise to me to say, "hey, let's increase the risk we'll =
take
as an Organization." The chapter would have a house (in Dan's
scenario) and even members who don't LIVE there will pay the price if =
something
happens to the Chapter. This is true in all cases - if the Chapter =
gets
into trouble, it spills over to all the members (particularly if a =
charter is
revoked). I don't see how, even in Dan's scenario, this is better =
for the
FRATERNITY as an organization. It may be better for a CHAPTER =
given
circumstances on a particular campus, true. Something that exposes =
the
Fraternity to this type of liability, however, seems unwise to =
me.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>B. If Brothers of a =
chapter
move into a house that they rent, the responsibility for upkeep, =
maintenance,
etc. falls to the OWNER(S) of the house, not the renters (now, I suppose =
there
is a statute somewhere in some state or city that says otherwise). =
If the
chapter, however, becomes the owner of a house, then the CHAPTER has the
responsiblity for upkeep, etc. and is responsibile if something happens =
at the
house (someone falls and gets hurt, etc.) If Brothers move in =
together to
a house they rent and something happens, the Fraternity may still be
sued. But were that to happen, the Fraternity would be able to say
"We do not allow our chapters to own houses. In this =
particular
case, members of a chapter, all college students, decided to be
roommates. The lease is for those individual members, not the =
chapter or
our organization." While that's not always an impervious =
defense,
the policy nevertheless allows the Fraternity to have a measure of
protection. (I am not a lawyer, though some of you will say I =
sound like
one.) :-)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>At the end of the day, =
Brothers, we
must ask ourselves this question (really about this and other =
policies):</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>"Is changing the =
current policy
in the best interest of Alpha Phi Omega?"</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If the answer is no, and in =
this
case my own opinion is that the answer is "no", then we do not =
change
the policy. And I feel that way even if the University owns the =
property.
Why? Because it is property that is leased to or in the name of =
the
Chapter. Now, you may say, "what about conferences when =
chapters
rent facilities for events?" That, to me, is an unavoidable
circumstance - chapters need to rent space for events (projects, =
banquets,
etc., all of which are in line with the goals and programs of the
Fraternity. Living together, however, is not (to me) one of those
"unavoidable circumstances" and, as such, there is no need for =
it.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This is, in my opinion, a =
very
dangerours road we are heading down, and I hope we take the next exit =
ramp and
get off it quickly. (What is with me and analogies today?) =
:-)</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Fraternally,</span></font></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Mark</span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Its not a forced decision, =
and its
not unto the chapter to pay or support a house(campus provided or not). =
Bylaws
can be made, etc. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My simplistic example. 4 =
Brothers,
(any gender), decide to rent a house off campus. It's their =
choice, no
one from the chapter is responsible, but those 4 individuals. They =
maintain
upkeep, etc. If there is a function, and food is provided, that is not =
the
house owners responsibility, but the chapter's, as it would be, if it =
was
taking place anywhere else. If the 4 people choose to move out, or =
live
separately, or else where, the house no longer remains the =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>APO</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
house. But current rules forbid something being called the =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>APO</span></font><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> house.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some issues =
raised:</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>1) Parents may have =
concerns over
co-ed living. We're all big boys and girls now. Secondly, no one =
is
forced to live in a house of any kind, unless they want/can afford =
to.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>2)Tensions. As I said =
before, we're
all big boys and girls. Often enough, brothers end up rooming together. =
There
are issues, and they deal with them.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3)Cleaning/Maintenance. =
Homeowners
are responsible for their own house. If they choose to host a function =
(it is
their choice, since they own/rent the house), they can ask for help =
cleaning,
or refuse future hosting.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>4) Taking away from =
service. This
shouldn't be an issue. The meeting is going to be held. As is the =
function. But
its much easier to plan this way, when you don't have to worry about the =
campus
giving you problems over availability. IF having a house takes =
away from
service, there are more serious problems to worry about. =
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>5)Internal problems. This =
may fall
under tensions, but we are all big boys and girls, as I've mentioned =
earlier.
We're grown up enough to deal with a problem, and hopefully not let it =
fall
into </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>APO</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> business. But as I also =
mentioned,
brothers have dormed together before. So its nothing =
new.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I can try to answer/suggest =
more
things further down the road, but that's all I have time for =
currently.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank you all for your =
input, I
enjoy this debate.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In LFS, </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dan</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message =
----- </span></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D'font-color:black'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:iceangel99@yahoo.com" =
title=3D"iceangel99@yahoo.com">Rachel</a> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span><=
/font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU" =
title=3D"APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</a>
</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font =
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thursday, August
28, 2003</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'> </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>11:24 AM</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</s=
pan></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Re: [APO-L]
APO House rule</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>First of all, by stating "Chapter =
property"
i was mostly referring to the property of the chapter located within the =
said
office (ritual materials, furniture, papers, other misc. office =
things).
Offices are not owned by the fraternity, but on the other hand, neither =
are all
fraternity houses. Some fraternity houses are owned by =
universities as a
way of controlling the Greek community. Rochester Institute =
of
Technology in </span></font>Rochester, NY recently built very nice
fraternity/sorority houses on its campus. Miami University in =
Oxford, Ohio's
sorority housing is all located in sorority dorms on campus. So =
who do
they call when the roof leaks? they call campus
maintenance. The university takes some of the liability off =
of the
fraternity itself because it can more easily regulate what goes on in =
these
places--i.e. they must be in compliance with university rules =
on alcohol,
etc. Heavy penalties can be placed on these greek organizations
not only by the national organization itself, but the university as
well. Also, since it is University property, it's a lot like =
deciding
whether to live on or off campus. If you do not live there, you =
don't pay
the extra 1,000 or whatever per semester. I'm not saying that this =
is
what APhiO should have, but it is a situation that may work on
campuses where it is available. </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Rachel Kuhn</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Section 89 staff</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Zeta Delta alum</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Graduate student, Syracuse University School =
of
Education</span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</div>
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