[23859] in APO-L
[APO-L] APO House rule- input from an Active who agrees with the alums who have been chiming in
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael Ryan Gallagher)
Thu Aug 28 12:00:13 2003
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:59:42 -0400
Reply-To: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
From: Michael Ryan Gallagher <famtree@UDel.Edu>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
Assuming Dan Kreifus is an Active, I agree with the alums who have been
chiming in, & I AM AN ACTIVE, I will address these issues from my own
experience, one by one, in a defense of the current policy. I hope this
does not come out as an attack on Dan.
Preventing the stereotypical nature of Greeks- I agree with Dan that the
policy against housing does that. I cite the "How can you be a fraternity
without a house?" FAQ from my chapter's Web site (Zeta Sigma). This was
developed in 1997 or earlier as other chapters have this FAQ on their sites.
The answer:
"Alpha Phi Omega is unique: it is a SERVICE fraternity. We use the concepts
of fraternatlism as a means of providing service, to ourselves as well as
others. The fact that our meetings are held in campus meeting rooms or in a
brother's dorm room or apartment does not decrease our sence of brotherhood.
In addition, since we are unique, we have no conflict with social
fraternities;
independents ;commuters; dorm dwellers and social fraternity members: all
are welcome as members of Alpha Phi Omega."
My chapter fell apart about 1999 and was restarted though not rechartered in
Spring 2001. Prior to that time, there were a few "APO houses" in Newark,
DE. There were 2 University of Delaware-owned apartments & there was a
house of which part and then all was rented by some brothers. However,
prior to restart, the chapter was de jure all-male. I know that the Iota
Lambda Chapter at NC State had 2 "APO houses" in the early '90s (which was
co-ed at the time, about 60% female) because the Zeta Sigma Chapter's
Scouting Advisor was an Active there from 1992-1996.
I ask Dan whether his campus considers APO Greek & if it was forced to join
the IFC. There is a fine distinction between Greek-letter & Greek. The
latter means there is a separate set of rules, usually stricter, from those
for Registered Student Organizations/clubs/etc. (names vary).
Regarding storage of materials: I am the Chapter Historian & I know this can
be inconvenient & conducive to losing stuff (one of the restarting alums
stored the chapter materials for years in his garage until I relieved him of
them & finally got his wife to stop asking when he'd get rid of that stuff).
There are obviously things missing from chapter property. Another
restarting alum had the history as incomplete as it was (missing over a
decade of over 50 years of existence). The alum who had much of the
material said when I picked it up that an advantage of having a house is
that stuff is all in one place. True, but after collapse less may've been
recovered in that scenario (please keep in mind that it included photos, our
charter, & awards, etc.).
Chapters whose schools provide housing- I am ignorant of this- is this for
Greek organizations? Please see my comments above. I will address finances
later. UD does have co-ed dorms (by wing or room or floor- it is the only
college by room I know of). I am going into my third year of college & my
first year I lived in a co-ed-by-room dorm. I don't know if
co-ed-by-room-ness was related to the fact that there seemed to be lots of
sex acts going on there (in one case I heard about it going on in a laundry
room, but that was firsthand hearsay). Perhaps colleges are conducive to
sex though. As a person who has never even dated anyone, I'm sure some or
all of you can see how this was a shock to me.
In response to Mariza Shavelle's e-mail...
Yes, I agree, having a house is expensive. I do NOT want to send the
message that APO is only for "rich kids," but on the flipside some social
frat members have said that was affordable (though APO more so- that is one
of our major draws. In raising fees in general one must always ask what
effect that will have on members & the organization especially recruiting &
retention. Believe me, I know; besides APO I'm in the BSA, Sons of the
American Revolution, & Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War & I have
direct contact with my local BSA council & with several SAR national
officers.
Regarding risk management & liability, several UD chapters of Greek groups
have been kicked off campus. This makes the house issue sticky. Besides
that, the City of Newark does not permit any more official fraternity houses
(I'm assuming Greek in general) so even the socials that are
restarting/starting cannot display letters. There is another statute that
was made after years of TKE being kicked off campus but maintaining a
lettered house because the National Fraternity owned it which stated that
any fraternity (or sorority?) which is not recognized by the university
cannot letter a house or have more than 6 unrelated individuals living in
it. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they enforced this & tried to force a
move-out 2 weeks before finals, but the chapter got a lawyer & stalled the
case long enough. Other college towns may have similar laws. Awhile back
I posted a message to which a reply came that I don't know much about
liability (it was regarding the online posting of the Board Policy Manual),
but here I CAN see it (I'm not too intuitive). I agree that the liability
is on the chapter, officers (although this is harder for me to
understand- like CEOs being crminally liable), & the national organization &
that we are having enough trouble controlling our risk management (& to some
degree reputation) in just pledging & that to add property liability is more
than we can handle.
On to Mo's e-mail & the anti-brothel laws...
In PA when I visited colleges in 2000, the law stating that 5 or more
unrelated women cannot live in the same house because that would be
considered a brothel still existed. I have heard of several ways to deal
with this problem. Universities can allow fraternities to have houses,
where sororities become annoyed (ex. Lehigh); they can prohibit Greek
housing (ex. Villanova); or they can designate a dorm section/floor for each
sorority or even each Greek group (I forget the example here). Other states
have similar laws, like Missouri (my sister checked out Washington U this
year so I know this). Would there really be 5 or more female brothers in
the house though if the chapter is roughly evenly-balanced (not assuming
they are because they aren't, just a specific case)? Another way this is
possible is that only female brothers want to live in the house. Having an
APO house COULD violate such laws putting the chapter & everything above it
in jeopardy.
In response to Packy's first e-mail... I agree 100%
Rachel's e-mail:
Co-ed living situation is an issue, I agree. Yes, "Many
undergraduates' [distinguish from Actives because grad students can be
Actives but they are mostly or completely on their own] parents still have
some control over their living situation because they help pay
tuition/room/board. To quote: "My parents (and I am sure there are others
out there) are old fashioned and would have freaked out about the idea of me
living in a "Fraternity House" with my "Coed Fraternity" where, unlike in
the coed dorm I lived in, there is really nobody to enforce rules of
visiting hours, quiet hours, etc." I would not necessarily call this
old-fashioned, but I am one of those others out there. I agree with the
parental wisdom here (again, see my dating reference above & perhaps I have
discomfort or fear of the unknown). I guess my parents & religion (Roman
Catholic, but I'm not a superdevoutee) really rubbed off on me. My mom sees
APO as a conservative (but not politically so, I don't think or at least I
hope) organization in relation to other college organizations because it
doesn't do wild things (although she & I haven't seen some of the stuff I've
heard about). I'm not a party-type person but I'm a people person though
not outgoing. On some thingsI tend to disagree with the typical (or
stereotypical?) college student view.
"Living together and doing service projects, social events, etc together
would probably add some unneeded tension to the chapter's dynamics." I
agree. I have tension already as I tend to have a different thought process
than most people & I seem to be much less laid back than the other members
of my chapter or most of them (there are 5 others).
Again, I agree with Packy.
I agree with Packy yet again.
On John Grossi's thoughts:
I agree with the time thing & detraction from some of APO's attractions. I
joined APO due to the continuing service in college but a in a fraternal
organization. I learned of APO out of the back of The Boy Scout Handbook &
went looking for APO at UD as a continuation of some of the experiences I
had in the BSA & also because of our Scouting & youth ties. I obviously
understood that it would not be all former Boy Scouts as it said "Some
chapters are co-ed" (correction: "most") & now with an all-male de facto
chapter, I am seeing something missing. As my troop's
soon-to-be-Scoutmaster, an alum of Rho Alpha, said "We went co-ed as soon as
possible because it makes things more interesting." Relations with
administration: yes, administrations have a tough time categorizing APO. I
know Gamma Sigma Sigma at UD just went Greek & no one was happy with it.
The situation is complicated, but because they serve alcohol to those of
legal age at functions & have never had a male sister at UD, they were
forced Greek. True, this is an example of relations gone bad. In fact, I
think someone assumed Zeta Sigma would be forced Greek even though it was
co-ed at the time due to this, but there is no pressure there.
I personally don't think I would've joined APO before restart if I were
older but I don't definatively know because I have not been in that
situation. This is mainly due to the traditional fraternity-type activities
that lead to our being allowed to die. I would never go Greek (see party
comment above). I don't know specifically what John means by "and
truthfully having seen the fraternity houses on a number of campuses, we're
doing our members a favor by NOT having them." I agree on at least a
financial & stereotypical basis.
I fully agree with Mark Stratton's & Michael Shulman's comments.
Have we considered the fact that not all Actives are traditional college age
and/or live on-campus? That would be another source of financial burden, I
think, because fewer people would use the house. My chapter has one Active
who is 65. He went to college, tried to start a chapter at a school in
Maine but the U of Maine did not want to come down & initiate the prospects.
He is now in APO probably because of his Scouting background plus that
experience. After college he served in the Vietnam Era for 3 years then a
buddy talked him into being a Scouter. He now has 40 years of experience.
Combine those factors with his going back to school full yime as a hobby to
be able to teach history in non-public elementary schools (the state is
paying; an over-60 program: I think Academy of Lifelong Learning; his first
education was on the GI Bill). I read something in the Torch & Trefoil once
about a woman who had just gotten out of the military & gone back to school
at age 40 & joined APO. She wrote in saying how glad she was that APO was
so accepting of "an old chick."
