[20399] in APO-L
Discussion with Mark/APO-APQ
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jesse Bridges)
Wed Mar 31 09:44:44 1999
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:44:17 EST
Reply-To: Jesse Bridges <jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
From: Jesse Bridges <jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
(Jesse)
Because it would not be a separate organization as a whole, =
you would keep all the National Officers the same. The change =
would come at the Regional and Sectional levels. A first the =
regions would be huge because of how few chapters we have right =
now. You would have these regional and sectional positions =
filled with people who would want to see the success of these =
chapters. Because right now you have pople voting on the future of =
All-male chapters who see now use for them. And I don't think that =
that is accurate representation. =
Mark---
---Well, those chapters DO have representation (presuming they send such =
---representation to the conferences and conventions.) And, I think if yo=
u =
---look at the last vote at this convention, you would find that your
---chapters have more support than just those chapters. =
(Jesse Again)
I'm considering the last convention. We had a vote to uphold a previous
repression. I'm impressed, but I know a bad deal when I see one. Existe=
nce
with eventual change. That is what that decision is based on. If I was =
in a
coed chapter I would vote for that as well. But you have to realize that=
a
vote like that, is like the Republicans voting to not make any more Democ=
rats.
=
(Jesse)
All the symbolism would remain the same if so desired. The thing is that =
this would open the door to create addition symbolism that would closely
relate to coed chapters and one that would relate to all-male chapters. D=
o you
know that at one time the was a sweetheart pin that you could order from =
the
national office. You are holding on to a environment created by pro coed
people with the assumption that Frank Reed Horton would have created this=
organization within in your own parameters, instead of looking at it for =
what
it was. I am merely stating the creation of a branch of Alpha Phi Omega =
that
would be simular to where this =
organization from, yet you cannot see the use of a fraternity as it was
existing for half a century, man. =
Mark---
---I bought a sweetheart pin for my fiancee, Brother. And I am not saying=
---that our Founder would have created this as a co-ed organization, but,=
---even if he wanted to, the times and social environment probably would
---have prohibited. And since you are talking about an organization "tha=
t
---woud be similar to where this organization came from," would you ---re=
quire
all members to be Boy Scouts as well as all male? If so, how ---many memb=
ers
would those chapters have today? =
(Jesse Again)
Dang Mark, Not that simular. You are evading my point, with things that =
don't
matter. You know exactly what I'm saying. That requirement was at the
beginning, but was soon removed while Frank Reed Horton was alive. =
Is that your answer to not wanting to see my view of an alternate branch =
of
Alpha Phi Omega?
(Mark Initially Said) =
___Second, I hear time and again how Frank Reed Horton founded this
___Fraternity as all-male. Why would I dispute something which is ___fact=
ually
true? Think of the times, though - how likely would it have ___been that=
he
could have created a FRATERNAL organization that =
___included both men and women? Not likely. =
=
(Jesse) =
I have heard this argument once before. Thinking of how Frank Reed Horton=
=
likley would have created a coed organization. You have to look at how =
Alpha Phi Omega was conceived. The first Idea that came to FRH, came duri=
ng
wartime. Men and women could have been there in the war, but I keep going=
=2E
Frank Reed Horton saw young men getting into trouble while on leave. I do=
n't
have the statistics, but what type of trouble? The same type of trouble t=
hat I
can not see military women getting into. But I'll go further. Frank Reed=
Horton went by what he saw before him. It involved men getting into troub=
le
and then he began to shape his ideas around that vision. His initial purp=
ose
was to give young men a standard of manhood that would withstand the test=
of
time. At this time, females were not in the plan. Then when he got back t=
o the
state he saw what he was looking for in the boy scout movement. He wanted=
to
"Follow on the heels" of what the boy scouts tried to accomplish. He wan=
ted
to teach young men aspects of manhood that will help them face life. Now=
if
you are beginning to shut down the attraction to this organization by you=
ng
men that desires to be in a All male fraternity in college. Then you are
working against the very thing that Frank Reed Horton was motivated to cr=
eate
for. =
Mark---
---I disagree; nothing prevents MEN from joining and adhering to that
---"standard of manhood." Your arguement seems to be, and please correct =
---me
if I haven't interpreted it correctly, that men can't quite get what ---t=
his
organization is all about in a co-ed chapter since that was not ---the
Founder's desire. Is that close to what you are saying above? I ---think
others that share my view believe that FRH's vision can be ---expanded to=
encompass more than just men, allowing ALL to strive to ---achieve that s=
ame
standard which your chapters hold sacred. =
(Jesse Again)
I was shocked to hear a student affairs campus administration official
recogize this when she said "your fraternity has gone away from what it w=
a
founded for." I knew it was not a completely inform statement, but the c=
oed
side of this fraternity does not put a distinctive interest into Manhood.=
=
Mankind yes. Why not allow all-male chapter do this by allow the attract=
ion
of men to the all-male side of this fraternity. My point is this the men=
on
the co-ed side is service oriented, and the ones that look for man hood
development are the ones that are also in another fraternity. And still =
there
are men that don't need it, because theyhave gotten a good upbringing fro=
m
their parents at home. I know you hear what I'm saying. So why not give=
all-male chapters organization and growth potential. Why the sterilizati=
on
when their is high interest there.
(Mark Initially Said) =
___And given his GRAND purpose to give people the right start in =
___life, by "holding before them a standard of manhood that would ___with=
stand
the test of time," it would have been nearly impossible =
___for him to do that by starting with a broad scope. =
=
=
(Jesse) =
The old book does not say "to give people" it specifically states, to =
give "young men" the right start in life by holding before them a =
standard of manhood that would withstand the test of time. The scope =
of the creation of this fraternity does not have to include anything =
but what the founder had in mind. My thing is, why halt what he has
accomplished. Sure you can include females into the fraternity, but =
why would you force females into the fraternity? Why would make it so th=
at if
a group of young men came together, prohibit them upon entering unless th=
ey
make a female want to call herself a brother. To me that is where you go
against the wishes of what Frank Reed Horton desired for young men. You w=
ould
rather turn them away than accept them into an already mostly female
organizations. =
Mark---
---I don't want to turn them away, Brother. But I don't want to turn =
---women away, either. And notice I didn't include "to give people" in =
---my quote. I am aware, Brother, of the words our Founder used, and =
---was careful not to include my paraphrase into the quote. =
(Jesse Again)
But Brother, that is what is happening. It is almost like, if a man had
interest he better learn how to make a female call herself a brother. An=
d he
can't, no chapter. Or if he knew that the chapter use to be all-male and=
he
was motivated, he is totally shut down, unless. It sound like a deparati=
on to
admit females. That's why I believe a more fair process would be to allo=
w any
chapter to be form a chapter then become suspended after a thorough
investigation ,if a female is denied entry. I know plenty of young men t=
hat
would like to open a chapter on about 17 campuses some black and some whi=
te. =
Denied, Denied, Denied. Even some females wish there were more men in th=
e
fratenity. This should not be the state of this organization. You alrea=
dy
have more females than males, (it seems like at that any) nationally at t=
he
undergraduate level. =
(Mark Initially Said) =
The principles that our Founding Brothers set before us, nearly 75 years =
ago, apply to ALL individuals, of all races, all genders, and all walks o=
f
life who choose to enter into our ranks. =
(Jesse) =
The first statement has to be wrong. If the statement was as easy as =
stated then there would be no stipulations on entering this organization.=
But
you have several "You Must Have"s that you have to include in that statem=
ent
to be realistic. =
=
(Mark Initially Said) =
Some might argue that there are other organizations that would be co-ed, =
and they would be right. And yes, they might offer leadership, friendship=
, and
service, I'd agree. But would they offer Leadership, Friendship, and =
Service as Alpha Phi Omega does? EVERYONE has the capacity to be a leader=
, to
be a friend, and to be of service, and Alpha Phi Omega offers a unique wa=
y to
do that. =
=
(Jesse) =
Mark, everything you stated in this section is true. But nobody considers=
=
this. Manhood. Young men reach manhood at different times and usually =
later than women reach their maturity. One reason this may be, is the lac=
k of
interest that all men have in attaining this aspect of life. The don't =
think it is important. There are many organizations that teach some form =
of
leadership, friendship and service and maybe all of those qualities. Each=
organization does it differently. My question is wasn't Alpha Phi Omega, =
Alpha
Phi Omega before 1976. Didn't they do something right to make it to 1976.=
The
reason I advocate organization of all-male chapters is that Alpha Phi Ome=
ga
did this before for young men, was made to do this for young men, current=
ly
have chapters of young men, and have young men wanting to create chapters=
=2E =
=
=
(Mark Initually Said) =
I don't think sending potential members to other organizations is the way=
=
to go. And if you feel that it is, why can't *you* go to another organiza=
tion =
that allows you to remain all male? I don't think THAT is the solution,
either. =
=
=
(Jesse) =
I came to this forum because this is the organization that should allow =
this to happen. When you have young men with a desire to create a chapter=
, and
they can't because a sectional or regional officier do not like their =
petitioning group make up, they have a tendency to go to another =
organization. So I don't believe that sending members to another organiz=
ation
is the way to go either. But they find friendship leadership service in
another organization, even when they had an initial attraction to Alpha P=
hi
Omega. We know that being a Co-ed organization is very popular, but so is=
being in an all male chapter. We have a blueprint for creating a manhood =
in
young men. We aleady the demand, why not create the supply. This is why=
I
say give organization to the young men under a separate branch of Alpha P=
hi
Omega. Right now we have separate branches APO-USA, APO-Canada, APO-Phil=
Fraternity, APO-Phil Sorority. Why not have something for the intitial
purpose that we had and currently have today. Young men without organizat=
ion. =
=
(Mark Initially Said) =
Third, I'll go on record here as virtually NOTHING has a recorded vote at=
=
the National Convention. I firmly believe that delegates should stand beh=
ind
their vote, and in particular, the members of the Board of Directors. I d=
on't
mean to be critical of them - I just believe (and those of you who know m=
e
know I am completely sincere about this) that LEADERS aren't afraid to st=
and
behind their convictions, even on controversial matters like this. I vote=
d for
the resolution that, in general, allows all-male chapters to remain all-m=
ale. =
=
(Jesse) =
You have to understand the people that make the decisions for the =
fraternity has the best interest of coed chapters, not all male chapters.=
=
So every vote that is passed involving all male chapters typically is a =
vote to their demise. That's not accurate representation. To remain all =
male
is fine, but to not allow growth is sterilization, ethinc cleansing, or s=
low
death. All male chapter are considered of the fraternity, but it is evide=
nt
that the co-ed side of fraternity is only considrate to their existense o=
nly.
But no enhancements. Definitely not. "If you don't think like a coed chap=
ter,
then you should not be able to exist and we will limit your growth until =
you
die on your own." Because of this feeling I have to say wew are separate
already. Give men food and water and set me adrift on a raft, I would rat=
her
exist and be able to organize myself and be who I am than to be made to b=
e who
I am not. =
Mark---
---This is where you are wrong, Brother. Many of the people who =
---make decisions for the Fraternity have the best interest of the
---FRATERNITY in mind, not co-ed chapters, and not all-male chapters.
---I know many of them, and I consider myself one of them. And your
---observation about "so every vote that is passed involving all male
---chapters typically is a vote to their demise" is incorrect as well. --=
-Look
at the last vote at the 1998 Convention and the resolution. =
---Tell me other votes in which the issue has led to the demise of =
---the all male chapters (aside from the Convention in 1976.) =
(Jesse Again)
You have to safely see my assumption here. Rules have been created for =
all male chapter sterilization. They would not have voted that for
themselves. Wehn you say Good for the fraternity, it is without consider=
ing
the total livelyhood of the guarannteed future all-male chapters. It is
geared toward (and I'm sorry for my previous of "demise" and I will say) =
the
eventual demise of all male chapters. =
1976: Woman were admitted
1986: All-male chapters were sterilized
1998: Coed vacination for the cathing the all male chapter disease. =
Plus a vote for continued sterilization =
(Mark Initially Said) =
I am still not convinced that having all-male chapters on co-ed campuses =
is
good for the FRATERNITY; it may be good for those chapters, but I don't =
think that's true for the Fraternity as a whole. =
=
(Jesse)
If we were able to survive 50 years being all male, with phenominal growt=
h,
how can giving organization to all male chapters be bad for the fraternit=
y?
How can you assume that it would be bad. Right now there is not enough
consideration to all male chapters. All male chapters do exist but when t=
hey
speak who will listen? =
Mark---
---Many of us DO listen, Brother, but we do not listen when people call =
---us names and yell at us (I don't mean to imply that you personally hav=
e
---done that, but it has happened.) We listen to the concerns raised by -=
--our
Brothers, regardless of the chapter from which they come. =
=
(Jesse Again)
Sorry for any yelling on their behalf. Repression from growth sucks. =
Especially when young men come to you personaly. And you know the foundi=
ng as
well as i do. I can see where the flustration comes from, but that's why=
I'm
trying a different avenue, to hopefully acheive national consideration.
=
(Mark Initially Said) =
I think those chapters should make efforts to integrate anyone, women =
included, who meet the requirements for membership, REGARDLESS of gender.=
=
(Jesse) =
This shows that their is no interest in you for them as an all male =
chapter. It makes me think that the actual charter is more coveted than =
the
views of the people in that chapter. =
Mark---
---How dare you say I have no interest in them. I do, and I am concerned =
about
those chapters and those Brothers. However, I am also interested in the
Fraternity as a whole and I do my best to look at the larger perspective,=
*not* my own self-interests. As I said, the chapters should make those ef=
forts
- that puts the responsibility on the Chapters to choose; it is not a man=
date.
(Jesse Again)
Control is at the Regional, Sectional and Membership Extention Committee.=
It
is a mandate, or no go. I have know of young men right now that want thi=
s. I
know of young men that have tried years ago and got discouraged, left to
create something different on more than one campus. When it is being tho=
ught
of for the fraternity as a whole, how can you say it is.
(Mark Initially Said) =
I voted FOR the resolution because I am still not convinced that suddenly=
=
forcing a chapter to go co-ed serves any useful purpose, either. Perhaps =
a delay in implementation of two years, perhaps some other delaying =
mechanism - I'm not sure. But I don't think the solution is just as simpl=
e as
saying, "Go co-ed or go home." That's not fair to those Brothers in those=
chapters. =
=
(Jesse) =
Thanks, I Think? Wishing to be fair would be to allow view that are =
favorable to there chapter to be of assistence to direction they want =
for there future. A delay in implementation is saying, "we do not want =
you kind, but we will let you stay awhile. Don't unpack anything just yet=
=2E"
Giving all-male chapter organization is giving them hope. Is that what is=
trying to be extinguished? =
=
(Mark Initially Said) =
Somewhere down the road, I honestly believe, there has to be some middle =
ground, and I just don't know what that is. =
=
(Jesse) =
If it came as idea, it may not get exceptence. Because people of co-ed =
chapter are really having problems with this simple idea. The kicker is =
this, this idea doesn't reduce the size of coed's huge chapter numbers. =
You force your desires on people that has their own, when you do not =
provide support to their views. Giving organization to young men has got=
to
be Alpha Phi Omega-like. It is the only real action that comes close to
duplicating what Frank Reed Horton tried to do, and accomplished. =
With that thought how can you not let APO-AMC exist. =
=
=
(Mark Initially Said) =
But for now, leave the chapters as they are. =
=
Times will change, attitudes will change, and chapters will come and go, =
whether they are all male or co-ed. =
=
(Jesse) =
"Times will change, attitudes will change, and coed chapters will come an=
d =
all male chapters will go." This is the big plan. "Phase out hopefully =
without down-sizing." "Let them die, cause they will die eventually", is =
so
close to cruxifiction, but only in terms of slow death. "How can we let t=
hem
know we don't want them without really really telling them?" is the real
dilima. Okay maybe I'm assuming that. But giving organization to all-ma=
le
chapters at least lends a voice to their point of veiw. =
=
If I read you correctly, if all male chapters had a veiw in their =
favor it would get drowned by the sea of people that are not desiring for=
them
to have a functional existence. Fraternities have been created this way, =
I
know. But people that are already in an organization, should have some
representation. If pro coed people really wanted to pull the trigger, th=
ey
could have a while back. But they have not. I think it has to do with wh=
ere
this organization came from. The action to become all male, then become =
coed
and kick out all the all male chapters is a cold act. But equally as cold=
is
to turn away any men that want to establish a chapter. That is completely=
opposite of Frank Reed Horton desired when =
he had an opinion, I assure you he would not have done that when
he was alive in his day, so why not allow what he wanted anymore?. =
I say that there are several separate opinions, several separate idea, an=
d =
several separate traditions. You can attempt to make room for all of them=
=
,which would be totally unrealistic. But it is realistic to make room fo=
r =
those ideas, opinions, and traditions for one that is distinctively =
different, brought up from the very past of this organization. =
=
I am in no way taking down to anyone here and Mark, you views are differe=
nt
than mine, yet you are still my brother and I respect your views. I just=
asking to give all male chapters a chance, by giving them =
organization. =
=
Also read: =
http://members.tripod.com/~JBSkeet/APO-APQ.html =
=
=
Jesse "JayBEE" Bridges =
President =
"Brothers of the Rising Sun, Atlanta Chapter" =
Alumni =
Alcorn State University =
Alpha Alpha Lambda Chapter =
Fall '80 =
=
=
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