[110168] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] So sarcophagus you say ? hmm..
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Mon Jul 31 15:26:59 2017
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In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKdALkGY-i23=bsa5ow0VgaP0WgvQidSkXDurYVaEadAg@mail.gmail.com>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2017 22:26:53 +0300
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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felix malmenbeck,
bIjangtaHvIS, tlhIngan Hol Dalo'mo' jIbel. 'a 'op Doch DIpojnISbogh tu'lu'.
vaj..
felix malmenbeck:
> tlhInganpu' Sar law' Humanpu' Sar law' 'e'
> vIHar.
Initially the law'/law' construction confused me, but finally I remembered
that instead of the classic law'/puS, there are alternate versions such as
the law'/law'. So, in this case the meaning obviously is "klingons are as
varied as the humans". The choice of the double {law'} instead of a double
{puS} obviously is made to express that both klingons and humans are
"varied to a great degree". Instead of "varied to a small degree", which
would be the case if we had a double {puS}.
felix malmenbeck:
> wa' nughHom'e' motlh vay', latlh nughHom'e'
> motlh latlh.
This messed me up real good until I finally managed to figure it out. It
must mean "as for one small society someone is usual, as for another small
society another is usual". Although I still can't understand why you used
{nughHom} instead of {nugh}.
felix malmenbeck:
> lommey meQmoH 'op. lommey meQmoH 'op.
"Some make corpses burn. Some make corpses burn". I don't understand why
you wrote {meQmoH} instead of just {meQ}. Also why repeat the same sentence
twice ?
felix malmenbeck:
> rIQwI'pu'vaD lom 'ay'Du'chaj nob HeghDI' 'e' 'Ip
> 'op 'ach nobQo' latlhpu' law'.
Isn't here the {law'} on the {latlhpu'} somewhat redundant ? Doesn't the
{-pu'} inherently mean "many" ? So, why say {latlhpu' law'} instead of just
{latlhpu'} ?
felix malmenbeck:
> taQ ghaH net ja'.
Is {ja'} a verb of speech ? If yes, don't the same rules apply for it, as
they apply for {jatlh} ? And if yes, then how is it possible to quote what
someone said, through the use of {net} ?
felix malmenbeck:
> *DaqS* qeng puqloD HeghmoHpu'DI' chISwI',
> lom meQmoHta' qeng. wa' jaj chISwI' HoH 'ej
> tIqDaj Sop 'e' 'Ip.
Although I have no idea who or what the {chISwI'} and the transliterated
{DaqS} is, I can understand the sentence; however I can't understand why
you chose {HeghmoH} over {HoH}. And I wonder too, with regards to the
choice of {meQmoHta'} over a simple {meQta'}.
qunnoq
On 31 Jul 2017 7:25 pm, "nIqolay Q" <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 11:11 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
> SKI: At a Star Trek Next Generation episode, two Klingons have died,
> and Picard asks the Klingon captain, what he is to do with the bodies.
> Then the Klingon captain replies: "They are empty vessels; treat them
> as such".
>
> As a result of this scene, I don't think that Klingons would utilize
> elaborate sarcophaghi, in order to dispose of corpses which -according
> to their beliefs- are nothing more than empty shells.
>
Maltz did say that Klingons didn't use sarcophagi anymore.
Also, I think it's important to remember that real cultures aren't totally
monolithic and homogeneous, even if that's how they like to present
themselves. In existing show canon, there are a number of variations on
Klingon funerary practices. There's the {Heghtay}, where you hold the eyes
open and scream. There's the {'aQvoH}, where you stand watch over the
corpse. A "Klingon mummification glyph" is referenced in Star Trek 4, so
clearly they did that at some point. And nobody held open Chancellor
Gorkon's eyes after his assassination. It's not a major contradiction, but
rather simply a sign that Klingons (much like, say, humans in Starfleet)
are more diverse than they seem (or want to seem) to outsiders. MO has
touched on this idea occasionally: acknowledging that an empire could have
room for another language like Klingonaase (see http://klingonska.org/canon/
1996-08-rt.txt), the opening to The Klingon Way describing how
seemingly-contradictory proverbs can still fit in the same culture, and the
whole section in KGT about the myth of Klingon conformity.
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<div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck,<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">bIjangtaHvIS, tlhIngan Hol Dalo'mo' jIbel. 'a 'op Doc=
h DIpojnISbogh tu'lu'.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">vaj..</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malme=
nbeck:</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto">> tlhInganpu' Sar la=
w' Humanpu' Sar law' 'e'=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">&=
gt; vIHar.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Initially the=
law'/law' construction confused me, but finally I remembered that =
instead of the classic law'/puS, there are alternate versions such as t=
he law'/law'. So, in this case the meaning obviously is "kling=
ons are as varied as the humans". The choice of the double {law'} =
instead of a double {puS} obviously is made to express that both klingons a=
nd humans are "varied to a great degree". Instead of "varied=
to a small degree", which would be the case if we had a double {puS}.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck:</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">> wa' nughHom'e' motlh vay', latlh nug=
hHom'e'=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">> motlh latlh.<br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This messed me up real good unti=
l I finally managed to figure it out. It must mean "as for one small s=
ociety someone is usual, as for another small society another is usual"=
;. Although I still can't understand why you used {nughHom} instead of =
{nugh}.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck=
:</div><div dir=3D"auto">> lommey meQmoH 'op. lommey meQmoH 'op.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">"Some make corpses=
burn. Some make corpses burn". I don't understand why you wrote {=
meQmoH} instead of just {meQ}. Also why repeat the same sentence twice ?</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck:</div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">> rIQwI'pu'vaD lom 'ay'Du'chaj nob He=
ghDI' 'e' 'Ip</div><div dir=3D"auto">> 'op 'ach =
nobQo' latlhpu' law'.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div=
dir=3D"auto">Isn't here the {law'} on the {latlhpu'} somewhat =
redundant ? Doesn't the {-pu'} inherently mean "many" ? S=
o, why say {latlhpu' law'} instead of just {latlhpu'} ?</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck:</div><div dir=
=3D"auto">> taQ ghaH net ja'.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"auto">Is {ja'} a verb of speech ? If yes, don't the same=
rules apply for it, as they apply for {jatlh} ? And if yes, then how is it=
possible to quote what someone said, through the use of {net} ?</div><div =
dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">felix malmenbeck:</div><div dir=3D=
"auto">> *DaqS* qeng puqloD HeghmoHpu'DI' chISwI',=C2=A0</di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">> lom meQmoHta' qeng. wa' jaj chISwI' Ho=
H 'ej=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">> tIqDaj Sop 'e' 'Ip.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Although I have no idea=
who or what the {chISwI'} and the transliterated {DaqS} is, I can unde=
rstand the sentence; however I can't understand why you chose {HeghmoH}=
over {HoH}. And I wonder too, with regards to the choice of {meQmoHta'=
} over a simple {meQta'}.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
auto">qunnoq</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On 31 Jul 2017 7:25 pm, "nIqolay Q" <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:niqolay0@gmail.com">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attr=
ibution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"quoted-text">On Mon, Jul 31, 20=
17 at 11:11 AM, mayqel qunenoS <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:mihk=
oun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">SKI: At a Star Trek Next=
Generation episode, two Klingons have died,<br>
and Picard asks the Klingon captain, what he is to do with the bodies.<br>
Then the Klingon captain replies: "They are empty vessels; treat them<=
br>
as such".<br>
<br>
As a result of this scene, I don't think that Klingons would utilize<br=
>
elaborate sarcophaghi, in order to dispose of corpses which -according<br>
to their beliefs- are nothing more than empty shells.<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div></div><div>Maltz did say that Klingons didn't use sarcophagi =
anymore.<br><br></div><div>Also, I think it's important to remember tha=
t real cultures aren't totally monolithic and homogeneous, even if that=
's how they like to present themselves. In existing show canon, there a=
re a number of variations on Klingon funerary practices. There's the {H=
eghtay}, where you hold the eyes open and scream. There's the {'aQv=
oH}, where you stand watch over the corpse. A "Klingon mummification g=
lyph" is referenced in Star Trek 4, so clearly they did that at some p=
oint. And nobody held open Chancellor Gorkon's eyes after his assassina=
tion. It's not a major contradiction, but rather simply a sign that Kli=
ngons (much like, say, humans in Starfleet) are more diverse than they seem=
(or want to seem) to outsiders. MO has touched on this idea occasionally: =
acknowledging that an empire=20
could have room for another language like Klingonaase (see=20
<a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-08-rt.txt" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://klingonska.org/canon/<wbr>1996-08-rt.txt</a>), the opening to The Klin=
gon=20
Way describing how seemingly-contradictory proverbs can still fit in the
same culture, and the whole section in KGT about the myth of Klingon=20
conformity.<br><br></div></div><br></div></div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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