[101212] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] is there a word for "darth" ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (HoD qunnoQ)
Mon Sep 21 00:16:54 2015
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:16:36 +0300
From: HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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well.. it is not that Klingon actually *needs* a term for Darth ; but i
believe it would be nice if such a term existed. Noone really knows what
lucas actually had in mind when he chose that term,and many theories
exist.What is certain though,is that the term "Darth" has been passed on to
popular science fiction culture,and it now contains a very distinctive
meaning ; a meaning one is not so much able to describe in a single
word,but rather a distinctive meaning in and of its own. Something like the
actual sum of every aggressive and negative attribute ; The combined
existence of
anger/pride/selfineshness/hate/aggression/manipulation/passion/malice etc..
i think that anyone who hears the word "Darth" just *feels* its meaning.
i believe it would be nice for many science fiction fans,if a canon Klingon
word was made for the term Darth ; a new,unique word,used exclusively for
Darth. Many fans of star trek and star wars alike would appreciate it.
besides,who knows ? maybe Sith lords exist within the Klingon empire as
well.. Its science fiction after all !
On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:28 AM, Bellerophon, modeler <
bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
> In speaking of him to Luke Skywalker, Obi-wan Kenobi refers to Darth Vader
> as "Vader," but later addresses him as "Darth." Grand Moff Tarkin addresses
> him a "Vader." Lower ranking Imperial personnel address him as "Lord
> Vader." One might infer that his personal name is Darth and that Vader is a
> surname, except that in the prequels, every Sith lord's name begins with
> Darth, which is supposed to mean something like Dark Lord. He is in fact
> called "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the script of the original Star Wars.
>
> A literal translation of dark lord would be {joH Hurgh}, but is there any
> canon usage that associates darkness with evil? To avoid that, {joH mIgh}
> gets the idea across adequately. So a guy named veyDIr who goes into the
> dark lord business might expect to be called veyDIr joH mIgh. Sauron might
> also like to be addressed in this fashion were he to meet any Klingons.
>
> This begs the question, why does Klingon need a term for Darth, any more
> than Sindarin needs one for bat'leth?
> ~'eD
>
> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Fiat Knox <fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> George Lucas said that "Darth Vader" is meant to be "Dark Father," a
>> somewhat clumsy way of concealing the fact that Vader happened to be Luke's
>> Dad right at the outset.
>>
>> So it would be "vav Hurgh" at best.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, 20 September 2015, 20:28, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> now that i think of it,maybe the most correct way to say it would be
>> "veyDIr Hurgh" ; would i be right to think so ?
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 8:30 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <
>> lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The short version of the answer:
>>
>> There is no known Klingon "word" for "Darth".
>>
>> The explanation, for anyone interested:
>>
>> First of all, words have meaning, and what, exactly, does "Darth" mean?
>> Is it his first name? Is it his rank? Is it his title?
>>
>> So far as I know, there's only been one Darth, and I've never heard him
>> referred to as either "Darth" or "Vader". Never anything like, "So, Darth,
>> how's it going?" Never anything like, "Mr. Vader gave you an order!" Every
>> reference to him that I can recall has been the naming pair "Darth Vader".
>> If not for the pause, it might as well be one word: "Darthvader". -- Hmm.
>> Maybe I've heard "Vader" alone, but I don't remember if that was in a
>> movie, or just among people talking about the movies.
>>
>> Meanwhile, "Darth" is really hard to say in Klingon. The consonants at
>> the end are just all wrong for the language. Attempts to transliterate
>> might come out as {Dargh} or {Datlh} or {Dartlhe'} or {DarSe'} or {Darte'}.
>> Unfortunately, my own guess as to how a Klingon ear might hear it favors
>> {Dargh}, which is the Klingon word for "tea", which is a drink that doesn't
>> get a lot of respect among Klingons, with an emotional connotation quite
>> unlike the dark, fearful effect that "Darth" is clearly intended to convey.
>>
>> So, if "Darth" is a word and it has a meaning, we need to know what that
>> meaning is before we attempt to find the closest Klingon word to that
>> meaning. If it is more simply a proper noun with a sound, but no meaning,
>> then we need to arbitrarily transliterate that sound, fixing the broken
>> consonant cluster at the end, since the only consonant "r-something"
>> cluster that can end a syllable in Klingon is {-rgh}, and there is no "th"
>> sound in Klingon. We might be tempted to consider {tlh} the equivalent to
>> "th" but it is at least as far from "th" as is {S} or {t}. Likely, {S} is
>> the closest sound to "th".
>>
>> "Vader" is easier. It would be {veyDIr} or maybe {veyDer}. Again, this is
>> transliteration, not translation, and human pronunciation is not consistent
>> enough to be other than arbitrary in choosing one most accurate
>> transliteration.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
>>
>> > On Sep 20, 2015, at 12:15 PM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > nuqneH
>> >
>> > i would like to ask if someone knows how to say in Klingon the word
>> "darth" ; "darth" as in "darth vader".
>> > i am pretty sure that if Klingons existed within the star wars mythos,
>> they would make some of the best Sith lords ever.
>> >
>> > Qapla'!
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
> My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>well.. it is not that Klingon actually *needs* a=
term for Darth ; but i believe it would be nice if such a term existed. No=
one really knows what lucas actually had in mind when he chose that term,an=
d many theories exist.What is certain though,is that the term "Darth&q=
uot; has been passed on to popular science fiction culture,and it now conta=
ins a very distinctive meaning ; a meaning one is not so much able to descr=
ibe in a single word,but rather a distinctive meaning in and of its own. So=
mething like the actual sum of every aggressive and negative attribute ; Th=
e combined existence of anger/pride/selfineshness/hate/aggression/manipulat=
ion/passion/malice etc.. i think that anyone who hears the word "Darth=
" just *feels* its meaning.<br><br></div>i believe it would be nice fo=
r many science fiction fans,if a canon Klingon word was made for the term D=
arth ; a new,unique word,used exclusively for Darth. Many fans of star trek=
and star wars alike would appreciate it.<br><br></div>besides,who knows ? =
maybe Sith lords exist within the Klingon empire as well.. Its science fict=
ion after all !<br><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:28 AM, Bellerophon, modeler <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>In speaking of him to Luke =
Skywalker, Obi-wan Kenobi refers to Darth Vader as "Vader," but l=
ater addresses him as "Darth." Grand Moff Tarkin addresses him a =
"Vader." Lower ranking Imperial personnel address him as "Lo=
rd Vader." One might infer that his personal name is Darth and that Va=
der is a surname, except that in the prequels, every Sith lord's name b=
egins with Darth, which is supposed to mean something like Dark Lord. He is=
in fact called "Dark Lord of the Sith" in the script of the orig=
inal Star Wars.<br><br></div>A literal translation of dark lord would be {j=
oH Hurgh}, but is there any canon usage that associates darkness with evil?=
To avoid that, {joH mIgh} gets the idea across adequately. So a guy named =
veyDIr who goes into the dark lord business might expect to be called veyDI=
r joH mIgh. Sauron might also like to be addressed in this fashion were he =
to meet any Klingons.<br><br></div>This begs the question, why does Klingon=
need a term for Darth, any more than Sindarin needs one for bat'leth?<=
br></div>~'eD<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Fiat Knox=
<span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:C=
ourier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir=3D"=
ltr">George Lucas said that "Darth Vader" is meant to be "Da=
rk Father," a somewhat clumsy way of concealing the fact that Vader ha=
ppened to be Luke's Dad right at the outset.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr">So it would be "vav Hurgh" at best.</div><=
div><div> <br><div><br><br></div><div style=3D"display:block"> <div style=
=3D"font-family:Courier New,courier,monaco,monospace,sans-serif;font-size:1=
6px"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Aria=
l,Lucida Grande,Sans-Serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D=
"Arial" size=3D"2"> On Sunday, 20 September 2015, 20:28, HoD qunnoQ <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br> </font> </div> <blockquote style=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb=
(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;margin-top:5px;padding-left:5px"> <br><br> <di=
v><div><div dir=3D"ltr">now that i think of it,maybe the most correct way t=
o say it would be "veyDIr Hurgh" ; would i be right to think so ?=
<br><div><br><div>On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 8:30 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nu=
v <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The short version of the answer:<br>
<br>
There is no known Klingon "word" for "Darth".<br>
<br>
The explanation, for anyone interested:<br>
<br>
First of all, words have meaning, and what, exactly, does "Darth"=
mean? Is it his first name? Is it his rank? Is it his title?<br>
<br>
So far as I know, there's only been one Darth, and I've never heard=
him referred to as either "Darth" or "Vader". Never an=
ything like, "So, Darth, how's it going?" Never anything like=
, "Mr. Vader gave you an order!" Every reference to him that I ca=
n recall has been the naming pair "Darth Vader". If not for the p=
ause, it might as well be one word: "Darthvader". -- Hmm. Maybe I=
've heard "Vader" alone, but I don't remember if that was=
in a movie, or just among people talking about the movies.<br>
<br>
Meanwhile, "Darth" is really hard to say in Klingon. The consonan=
ts at the end are just all wrong for the language. Attempts to transliterat=
e might come out as {Dargh} or {Datlh} or {Dartlhe'} or {DarSe'} or=
{Darte'}. Unfortunately, my own guess as to how a Klingon ear might he=
ar it favors {Dargh}, which is the Klingon word for "tea", which =
is a drink that doesn't get a lot of respect among Klingons, with an em=
otional connotation quite unlike the dark, fearful effect that "Darth&=
quot; is clearly intended to convey.<br>
<br>
So, if "Darth" is a word and it has a meaning, we need to know wh=
at that meaning is before we attempt to find the closest Klingon word to th=
at meaning. If it is more simply a proper noun with a sound, but no meaning=
, then we need to arbitrarily transliterate that sound, fixing the broken c=
onsonant cluster at the end, since the only consonant "r-something&quo=
t; cluster that can end a syllable in Klingon is {-rgh}, and there is no &q=
uot;th" sound in Klingon. We might be tempted to consider {tlh} the eq=
uivalent to "th" but it is at least as far from "th" as=
is {S} or {t}. Likely, {S} is the closest sound to "th".<br>
<br>
"Vader" is easier. It would be {veyDIr} or maybe {veyDer}. Again,=
this is transliteration, not translation, and human pronunciation is not c=
onsistent enough to be other than arbitrary in choosing one most accurate t=
ransliteration.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv<br>
<div><div><br>
> On Sep 20, 2015, at 12:15 PM, HoD qunnoQ <<a rel=3D"nofollow" href=
=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> w=
rote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> nuqneH<br>
><br>
> i would like to ask if someone knows how to say in Klingon the word &q=
uot;darth" ; "darth" as in "darth vader".<br>
> i am pretty sure that if Klingons existed within the star wars mythos,=
they would make some of the best Sith lords ever.<br>
><br>
> Qapla'!<br>
><br>
><br>
</div></div>> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a rel=3D"nofollow" href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
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gan-hol" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l</a><br>
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"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">-- <br><div>My modeling blog:=C2=A0=C2=A0=
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