[9372] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2968 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Wed Jun 24 17:08:02 1998
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 98 14:01:48 -0700
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Wed, 24 Jun 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 2968
Today's topics:
Re: What a Crappy World (Michael J Gebis)
Re: What a Crappy World (Craig Berry)
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (Brad Murray)
Re: What a Crappy World (Michael J Gebis)
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World (Stuart McDow)
Re: What a Crappy World <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Re: What a Crappy World <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Re: What a Crappy World (David B. White)
Re: What a Crappy World ("Mark Morgan Lloyd ")
Re: What a Crappy World <ljz@asfast.com>
Re: What a Crappy World (John Moreno)
Re: What a Crappy World <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: What a Crappy World <kperrier@blkbox.com>
WIN32::ODBC and use of <hstack@att.com>
Re: wwwborad and win95 <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:07:49 GMT
From: gebis@albrecht.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael J Gebis)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrmal$97r@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry) writes:
}If someone can endure a serious flaming, learn
}from it, and renounce idiocy to become a valued contributor to clpm,
}great. If not...no great loss. One less person degrading the group.
Except that eventually, you're left with a group filled with bullies
and people who are willing to put up with bullies.
--
Mike Gebis gebis@ecn.purdue.edu mgebis@eternal.net
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:03:38 GMT
From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrm2q$gu7$2@marina.cinenet.net>
Scratchie (upsetter@ziplink.net) wrote:
: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> wrote:
:
: : So, while I don't engage in it myself, I now find myself supporting
: : rudeness in response to rude posters -- where the latter form of rudeness
: : encompasses posting of FAQs, repeated posts of the same question, and
: : other violations of netiquette. And here's why: I'm hoping that the
: : environment in clpm gets so idiot-hostile that only non-idiots dare to
: : post.
:
: Too bad that this approach will never work. The only way idiots could know
: that the group is idiot-hostile is by reading the group. And these people
: -- we all agree -- don't read the group before posting. They are idiots.
I'm coming to think of it as the bug-zapper model. True, to reach the
zapper, the bugs have to fly through my yard. Once. As opposed to just
looping around forever until they decide they've annoyed me enough and
leave of their own accord (or evolve into less annoying creatures, to
stretch the analogy a bit).
: The only people you're going to discourage from posting are intelligent
: beginners who unknowingly post FAQs or non-perl-related questions. Such
: people will leave the group wondering why everybody is such an asshole,
Why would they leave? If they are indeed intelligent, they will say "Duh!
I *should* have looked at all this free doc on my hard drive!" Then
they'll read it, and return to clpm magically transformed into
non-newbies.
I refuse to believe that any potentially valuable member of the Perl
community can be driven permanently from clpm by a single, well deserved
flaming.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
--*-- Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
| Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
"Every man and every woman is a star."
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:17:19 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrmsf$qhr$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net> writes:
>
> From the Blue Camel:
>
> Most important, you don't have to know everything there is to know
> about Perl before you can write useful programs. .... You can
> program in Perl Baby-Talk and we promise not to laugh..."
>
> Too bad that's not part of the charter for this group.
Point taken. I promise I won't laugh at Baby-Talk Perl
programs. However, unlike children, perl baby-talkers are reponsible
for their own advancement. We aren't children. We don't need our hands
held.
> So your definition of a "basic understanding" is "complete and
> accurate knowledge of every single command and application
> available" ? ?
Complete? I think that would be impossible. Nonetheless, if some term
(say grep or fork or shmem or mmap or whatever) comes up in the
discussion, I would think it reasonable for someone who wanted to keep
up with the discussion to go and learn about grep on their
own. Iterate enough times and you have a basic understanding of the
OS.
This point of yours is also taken. I'll revise what I said earlier: "A
basic understanding of the computer and its OS is not required to run
perl programs, but it is assumed that you have this understanding for
purposes of discussion."
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 12:43:47 -0700
From: murrayb@vansel.alcatel.com (Brad Murray)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrktj$8pj@cadre2.vansel.alcatel.com>
It seems Fred Riley suggested...
>Uh-huh. And if you're not a Unix geek? If you're using Perl on Win95/NT?
>If you're a Unix novice?
If you are a programmer, you will find the Unix toolset invaluable. It is
availble (for the most part) for Win32 platforms. If you are using Perl
you may qualify as a programmer. Therefore, it might be handy to get the
tools. They do simplify your work in Perl and elsewhere. They are not
hard to learn. They do not require learning 'Unix' per se, but they do
require adopting the toolbox mindset, which is, unsurprisingly, at the
heart of Perl philosophy.
To summarize: if you are using Perl, you should get the tool kit it assumes.
Your life will be easier.
>Not everyone has access to Unix boxes, and some perverts even run
>websites and CGI scripts from PCs. Strange, but true. Not being privy to
>the arcane and esoteric world of Unix doesn't disqualify a person from
>asking questions about Perl. Unless, of course, you'd prefer that Perl
>stay the private preserve of Unix geeks...
Not to quibble, but if by 'PC' you mean Intel x86 processor machines of
conventional configuration, some of us perverts run Unix on them to. Not
relevant, though. The point of the post is only that effective use of Perl
will require some attention to the freely availble Unix style toolkit.
References to it are hardly out of line, and invention of its functions as
separate Perl entities makes as much sense as re-writing them in C does.
Why would you? They already exist. Go get them!
--
Brad Murray "The fall of modern man will be preceded by the
Software Analyst de-evolution of communications to the days of
Alcatel Canada oral tradition." --Tom Christiansen paraphrased
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:29:45 GMT
From: gebis@albrecht.ecn.purdue.edu (Michael J Gebis)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrnjp$9pj@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
fl_aggie@thepentagon.com (I R A Aggie) writes:
}In article <6mr73l$2tt@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, gebis@albrecht.ecn.purdue.edu
}(Michael J Gebis) wrote:
}+ pudge@pobox.com (Chris Nandor) writes:
}+ }I don't. I would rather go down fighting than just abandon ship.
}
}+ Ultimately, this is the difference that divides this group. Half the
}+ people see it as "going down fighting," while the other half see it as
}+ "going down whining."
}You're opening the newbie helpdesk when?
I decided that I'm going to be completely greedy on this issue.
Somebody (from ignorance, laziness, apathy, malice) posts a question
which is answered elsewhere or is otherwise inappropriate. Go ahead
and flame the SOB. BUT DON'T DO IT ON THE NEWSGROUP. Why the hell
should I have to read not only the original (useless to me) question,
but also the (useless to me) answer. It's bad enough to see "RTFAQ"
dozens of times, without someone posting in a way guaranteed to ignite
a flame war.
I don't want to be forced to suffer doubly, quadruply, or septuply for
a bad question. And I'm not going to buy any "munged e-mail" arguments.
Stop punishing me for someone else's sin. Posting RTFAQ without
adding any information isn't a heroic fight against the forces of
ignorance. It's just a waste of the good citizen's time.
--
Mike Gebis gebis@ecn.purdue.edu mgebis@eternal.net
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:30:46 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrnlm$pj$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Fred Riley <f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk> writes:
>
> Uh-huh. And if you're not a Unix geek? If you're using Perl on
> Win95/NT?
This begs the question: Why, if you're using a Microsoft platform -
replete with many, many development tools and IDEs, etc - did you
choose a development environment with its roots so deeply in and its
paradigms so thoroughly steeped in the Unix world.
IMO, the fact that there's a Win32 port of perl (along with the Win32
modules) is complete serendipity (and one for which I'm extremely
grateful). Consider yourself lucky that it exists at all. I know I
do. Everyday.
> If you're a Unix novice?
See my previous posting. I revised my position.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:33:38 GMT
From: smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu (Stuart McDow)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrnr2$1c5$1@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu>
Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com> writes:
>
> If you don't want to be a "teacher" here in c.l.p.misc, then don't
> do it.
IMO, there are many excellent teachers here in clp.misc, including
TomC. It seems that some people let personal style get in the way of
information transfer.
--
Stuart McDow Applied Research Laboratories
smcdow@arlut.utexas.edu The University of Texas at Austin
"Look for beauty in roughness, unpolishedness"
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:26:36 GMT
From: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrnds$e4k@fridge.shore.net>
Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> wrote:
: [courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
: Lloyd, are you of the opinion that this newsgroup exists for the
: express purpose of helping people who don't read manpages? That
: it's a Perl Beginners Free Helpdesk? Are you sure you want to
: support that position?
Straw man.
--Art
PS: Nobody's asking you to write a DOS replacement for "find", either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:28:03 GMT
From: Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrngj$e4k@fridge.shore.net>
Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> wrote:
: We don't want to scare people away
Are you sure you want to support this position? <g>
--Art
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
National Ska & Reggae Calendar
http://www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:51:23 GMT
From: dbwhite@btv.ibm.com (David B. White)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrosb$l40$1@mdnews.btv.ibm.com>
In article <6mrikj$ol8$8@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>,
Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com> writes:
> [courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
>
> In comp.lang.perl.misc,
> Andrew Johnson <ajohnson@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:
>:Where do people get the notion that clpm is 'grade-school' for
>:Perl (or for programming in general)? This is the fundamental
>:error people are making.
>
> I don't know where this notion comes from, but it is a curious one.
> We don't want to scare people away, but they need to disabuse themselves
> of this wacky idea.
>
> --tom
Programming Perl, Second Edition talks about Usenet newsgroups on page
xv, and in the sentence that refers to clpm, states "no question is
too silly to ask." That conveys carte blanche to ask anything; no
intelligence required.
The footnote goes on to indicate questions already answered in the FAQ
are too silly to answer, which implies that FAQs will probably not
receive an answer. It doesn't properly warn silly appenders to don
their asbestos clothing prior to checking for replies...
Until O'Reilly recalls all Programming Perl books and reissues one with
a rewritten user-hostile Preface, the unwashed masses have been invited
to show up in this newsgroup....
(YANPAFDSNR - Yet Another Non-Perl Append, Further Degrading the Signal-Noise Ratio)
--
David B. White
IBM Microelectronics, Circuit Verification & Design Tools
Internal: dbwhite@btv Internet: dbwhite@vnet.ibm.com
Phone: 802-769-5671 (TieLine: 446) Fax: 802-769-5722
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 21:51:58 +0100
From: mark_tbu@cix.co.uk ("Mark Morgan Lloyd ")
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mrote$q1s$1@plutonium.compulink.co.uk>
In article <35912A5B.1E9@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk>,
f.h.riley@NOSPAMselc.hull.ac.uk (Fred Riley) wrote:
> Sadly, from my brief acquaintance with this NG, I have to agree with
> Olga. I'm a regular contributor to the Toolbook listserv (mirrored as
> bit.listserv.toolb-l) and the difference in atmosphere between there and
> here is marked. On TOOLB-L we get lots of repeat questions, but no-one,
> and I mean no-one, ever says RTFM or "read the goddam FAQ" to newbies.
There's a simple reason. I've never heard of Toolbook and I've no reason
to believe that my life is poorer as a result of it, and I'd reckon I'm
fairly typical. Everybody who thinks they know something about The
Internet or The Web (or whatever variant is fashionable this month) has
heard of Perl, and seem intent on hitching a free ride from the more
experienced members of this newsgroup: in many cases they are quite open
about the fact that anything they scrounge will be applied in a commercial
setting.
I'd like to thank Tom for the useful hints he gave me, but I'm afraid I'm
out of here for a while: the signal's great but it's still being swamped
by the noise and I've got a job to do :-(
Mark Morgan Lloyd
mark_tbu@cix.co.uk
[Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or
colleagues]
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 16:49:42 -0400
From: Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <ltzpf2bk49.fsf@asfast.com>
Andrew Johnson <ajohnson@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> writes:
> Lloyd Zusman wrote:
> !
> [snip]
>
> ! By the same token, those who have taken it upon themselves to be
> ! teachers here in c.l.p.misc should also practice the same
> ! patience and understanding that good elementary school teachers
> ! need to practice ... or else stop trying to be teachers in the
> ! first place.
>
> Where do people get the notion that clpm is 'grade-school' for
> Perl (or for programming in general)? This is the fundamental
> error people are making.
Some people might indeed be making this error, but since you are
responding to my particular post, please allow me to clarify what *my*
position is.
Many people here have taken it upon themselves to educate "newbies"
about the following topics:
-- That their questions are FAQ's.
-- That excellent documentation exists which answers their questions.
-- That this newsgroup would be even more cluttered with noise than
it currently is if frequently asked questions were routinely and
repeatedly posed and answered here.
-- That some of the questions posed by novices are better answered in
other, more topical forums.
[ Note that nowhere in this list did I mention anything about
providing novices with technical help about Perl itself. ]
In my analogy, those who have chosen to provide this education are in
a role that is similar to that of a second-grade teacher. Instead of
teaching reading and arithmetic, they are teaching about netiquette
and about the existence and location of the Perl documenatation.
Those who pursue this self-chosen "teaching" pastime can do it
politely, respectfully, and as adults (as Tom Phoenix does, for
example), or they can do it insultingly, condescendingly, and
immaturely.
My position is to encourage people to do this with politeness and
respect.
--
Lloyd Zusman ljz@asfast.com
perl -e '$n=170;for($d=2;($d*$d)<=$n;$d+=(1+($d%2))){for($t=0;($n%$d)==0;
$t++){$n=int($n/$d);}while($t-->0){push(@r,$d);}}if($n>1){push(@r,$n);}
$x=0;map{$x+=(($_>0)?(1<<log($_-0.5)/log(2.0)+1):1)}@r;print"$x\n"'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:56:29 GMT
From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <1db504p.1v0kyjn7zgofrN@roxboro0-044.dyn.interpath.net>
Lloyd Zusman <ljz@asfast.com> wrote:
-snip-
> If you don't want to be a "teacher" here in c.l.p.misc, then don't do
> it. But if you have chosen that role for yourself, then don't forget
> that almost each "newbie" that shows up here is like a brand new
> second-grade student.
But this isn't second grade! At worst it's high school and it should be
college! High school students or college students acting like a second
grader need to be reamed.
--
John Moreno
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 20:38:46 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <6mro4m$b12$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
Scratchie <upsetter@ziplink.net> writes:
:Sometimes. Or sometimes you insult them for being so incredibly ignorant
:that they didn't immediately know *which* of the 1000 pages of
:documentation related to their problem, or that they dared try to program
:in perl without knowing exactly how every app in /usr/bin works.
The inability to run a simple search in a textfile or ten is
a crippling disability, what which probably disqualifies one
from programming altogether.
--tom
--
X-Windows: It was hard to write; it should be hard to use.
--Jamie Zawinski
------------------------------
Date: 24 Jun 1998 15:56:04 -0500
From: Kent Perrier <kperrier@blkbox.com>
Subject: Re: What a Crappy World
Message-Id: <ysiyaumv7rv.fsf@blkbox.com>
Olga <katzman@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
> No one is forcing you to respond to the "idiots"
> You are more then welcome to just ignore the post and that way the
> "idiots" can do their own reasearch or start asking people personally.
> But I am just saying that insulting "idiots" no matter how "dumb" is not
> a very nice thing to do.
> Olga
Being nice is all well and good, but when the "idiots" refuse to read the
documentation that comes with perl, refuse to "lurk" in the newsgroup for
a week or two before posting, refuse to look in dejanews for similar
questions, continue to post off-topic questions and ask the same question
over and over they get what they put into asking their question. Nothing.
If you are so offended by people heaping scorn on the people-who-are-determned-
to-remain-clueless, then, by all means, YOU can answer all of their questions.
Kent
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:56:38 -0400
From: <hstack@att.com>
Subject: WIN32::ODBC and use of
Message-Id: <6mrlk3$rdn@newsb.netnews.att.com>
Does anyone have any more elaborate examples of using some of the
win32::ODBC
functionality than is provided in the man pages.
I need some help seeing how many rows were affected in an update query. How
do I do it, rowcount does not work.
use Win32::ODBC;
$sql = "update table1 set field = 'newvalue' where field like 'oldvalue';
$ret = $s_table->Sql($sql);
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:37:32 GMT
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: wwwborad and win95
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980624133518.14091G-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998, Michal Sibilski wrote:
> I'm looking for anyone who know how run the WWWborad (by Matt) under
> windows 95..
If you're having troubles getting Matt's scripts to work, you're not the
only one. It may be easier to learn Perl and write them from scratch. Of
course, if you're not interested in learning Perl, this newsgroup may not
be the resource for you. Good luck!
--
Tom Phoenix Perl Training and Hacking Esperanto
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 2968
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