[8116] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 1734 Volume: 8
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Jan 26 18:07:44 1998
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 15:00:22 -0800
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 26 Jan 1998 Volume: 8 Number: 1734
Today's topics:
Re: are there something like "Perl for Idiot" in Bookst (Randy J. Ray)
BUG in string pattern match <webster@nortel.ca>
Re: BUG in string pattern match (Chip Salzenberg)
Re: CGI.pm and server errors <sanjay@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Re: CGI.pm and server errors (brian d foy)
Checking for a http RELOAD with perl (G. E. Terry)
Re: Checking for a http RELOAD with perl (Chip Salzenberg)
Creating simlink? skulk@wam.umd.edu
Re: Crontab:Automatically Run a Perl Script? (Andrew Williams)
Re: Exporter/package question <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: Freidl's book mystery <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
help needed with Perl instalation with NT <np59re@mail.telepac.pt>
Re: help needed with Perl instalation with NT (Chip Salzenberg)
Multpule responce regexp substation <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Re: Perl DB Question <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Re: Perl programming with NT4.0: sendmail problem <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Re: Perl Source Obfuscator <nmarino@home.com>
Running a package standalone? <zamboni@cs.purdue.edu>
Re: Simple perl check. <rootbeer@teleport.com>
Re: Survival Of perl (Frank)
Re: Survival Of perl (Frank)
Re: Survival Of perl (Chip Salzenberg)
Re: Survival Of perl (Chip Salzenberg)
using packages with perl on Windows (NT)? <noel@integrityonline.com>
vi for Window$ (was:Re: Survival Of perl) <dgoddard@us.oracle.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 13:52:36 -0800
From: randyr@i2496147.nafohq.hp.com (Randy J. Ray)
Subject: Re: are there something like "Perl for Idiot" in Bookstore?
Message-Id: <v957m7mnbrv.fsf@i2496147.nafohq.hp.com>
>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
>>>>> wrote the following on 20 Jan 1998 21:58:36 GMT
Tom> INTERMEDIATE:
Tom> ... Advanced Perl Programming
Tom> Truly advanced? Dunno. Maybe APP.
Truly advanced-- the source code. And if you need to be talked out of reading
the source code, start with sv.c.
Randy
--
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Randy J. Ray 408-343-7578
randyr@nafohq.hp.com
"Reach up your hand, if your cup be empty/If your cup is full, may it be again"
--Grateful Dead, "Ripple"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:49:31 -0500
From: Brent Webster <webster@nortel.ca>
Subject: BUG in string pattern match
Message-Id: <34CD04D4.7B10@nortel.ca>
The test script:
#!/usr/bin/perl
#
$aString = '/main/spm01/CHECKEDOUT';
foreach $cnt (1 .. 3) {
if ($aString =~ m?/CHECKEDOUT$?) { # test#1: fails on 2nd
pass
## if ($aString =~ /\/CHECKEDOUT$/) { # test#2: works fine
## if ($aString =~ m:/CHECKEDOUT$:) { # test#3: works fine
print $cnt . " compared ok\n";
} else {
print $cnt . " compared failed\n";
}
}
exit;
If test #1 is used, it fails on the 2 and subsequent loops while test #2
and 3
work as expected. i.e.
1 compared ok 1 compared ok
2 compared failed versus 2 compared ok
3 compared failed 3 compared ok
I'm assuming the '$?' at the end of the comparison is being corrupted
since it also represents the "system" return code.
Pariculars:
Summary of my perl5 (5.0 patchlevel 3 subversion 0) configuration:
Platform:
osname=solaris, osver=2.5.1, archname=sun4-solaris
uname='sunos bcars7cf 5.5.1 generic sun4m sparc sunw,sparcstation-5
'
hint=recommended, useposix=true, d_sigaction=define
Compiler:
cc='gcc', optimize='-O', gccversion=2.7.2
cppflags='-DDEBUGGING'
ccflags ='-DDEBUGGING'
stdchar='unsigned char', d_stdstdio=define, usevfork=false
voidflags=15, castflags=0, d_casti32=define, d_castneg=define
intsize=4, alignbytes=8, usemymalloc=y, randbits=15
Linker and Libraries:
ld='gcc', ldflags =''
libpth=/lib /usr/lib /usr/ccs/lib
libs=-lsocket -lnsl -ldl -lm -lc -lcrypt
libc=/lib/libc.so, so=so
Dynamic Linking:
dlsrc=dl_dlopen.xs, dlext=so, d_dlsymun=, ccdlflags=' '
cccdlflags='-fpic', lddlflags='-G'
@INC: /opt/corp/local/perl-5.003/lib/sun4-solaris/5.003
/opt/corp/local/perl-5.003/lib
/opt/corp/local/perl-5.003/lib/site_perl/sun4-solaris
/opt/corp/local/perl-5.003/lib/site_perl .
Thanks,
Brent Webster (613) 763-4962, webster@nortel.ca
------------
Some of us like hunting wild boar in a thicket, and some
like to go to the supermarket and pick up a baked ham!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:03:43 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: BUG in string pattern match
Message-Id: <6aj1ai$d0u$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to Brent Webster <webster@nortel.ca>:
> if ($aString =~ m?/CHECKEDOUT$?) { # test#1: fails on 2nd
> ## if ($aString =~ /\/CHECKEDOUT$/) { # test#2: works fine
That's not a bug. Each ?? match succeeds only once, until you
use the reset operator. It's all in the docs.
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
"We can shower it with neutrons."
"Or we can do the Neutron Dance!" // MST3K
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:53:30 -0500
From: Sanjay Vohra <sanjay@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: CGI.pm and server errors
Message-Id: <34CD05D8.E4E47C21@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Dave Barnett wrote:
> Sanjay Vohra wrote:
> >
> > i wonder what i am missing,
> >
> > all the script is supposed to do is print a couple of lines of html but i
> > keep getting this error about CGI::isa not
> > found and then the server coughs up some error
> >
> > sv
> Ok.
>
> How about a copy of the code, as Tom Phoenix has already asked about?
> That would be INFINITELY helpful.
>
> Second, do you attempt to use/require/call a subroutine called
> CGI::isa? If so, perl is dutifully telling you that it cannot find it.
> Again, without a copy of the code, it is a bit difficult to shed any
> more light on the matter.
>
> Third, (as Tom already pointed out) we are good at Perl, but not so good
> with mind-reading, so a copy of the failing code would be infinitely
> helpful to you, and to us.
>
> Dave
>
> --
> "Security through obscurity is no security at all."
> -comp.lang.perl.misc newsgroup posting
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> * Dave Barnett U.S.: barnett@houston.Geco-Prakla.slb.com *
> * DAPD Software Support Eng U.K.: barnett@gatwick.Geco-Prakla.slb.com *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK lets do this again, this is another script i tried
-----------------------------------
#!/n/umble/0/sanjay/perl5.004
use CGI ':standard';
BEGIN{
push @INC ,('/n/state/1/cue/sanjay/perl5/lib/CGI.pm-2.37018');
}
print header;
print start_html('A Simple Example'),
h1('A Simple Example'),
start_form,
"What's your name? ",textfield('name'),
p,
"What's the combination?",
p,
checkbox_group(-name=>'words',
-values=>['eenie','meenie','minie','moe'],
-defaults=>['eenie','minie']),
p,
"What's your favorite color? ",
popup_menu(-name=>'color',
-values=>['red','green','blue','chartreuse']),
p,
submit,
end_form,
hr;
if (param()) {
print
"Your name is: ",em(param('name')),
p,
"The keywords are: ",em(join(", ",param('words'))),
p,
"Your favorite color is: ",em(param('color')),
hr;
}
print a({href=>'../cgi_docs.html'},'Go to the documentation');
print end_html;
-----------------------------------
and this is the error that i am getting
-----------------------------------
% ~cue/sanjay/perl5/bin/perl5.004 script1.cgi < /dev/null
(offline mode: enter name=value pairs on standard input)
Content-type: text/html
Undefined subroutine CGI::isa
-----------------------------------
any comments will be greatly apprecited
sv
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:16:47 -0500
From: comdog@computerdog.com (brian d foy)
Subject: Re: CGI.pm and server errors
Message-Id: <comdog-ya02408000R2601981716470001@news.panix.com>
Keywords: from just another new york perl hacker
In article <34CD05D8.E4E47C21@cis.ohio-state.edu>, Sanjay Vohra <sanjay@cis.ohio-state.edu> posted:
>#!/n/umble/0/sanjay/perl5.004
>
>use CGI ':standard';
>
>BEGIN{
> push @INC ,('/n/state/1/cue/sanjay/perl5/lib/CGI.pm-2.37018');
>}
>and this is the error that i am getting
>-----------------------------------
>% ~cue/sanjay/perl5/bin/perl5.004 script1.cgi < /dev/null
>(offline mode: enter name=value pairs on standard input)
>Content-type: text/html
>
>Undefined subroutine CGI::isa
>-----------------------------------
i'm curious how you installed this module - did you follow the
procedure in the README?
--
brian d foy <comdog@computerdog.com>
CGI Meta FAQ <URL:http://computerdog.com/CGI_MetaFAQ.html>
Comprehensive Perl Archive Network (CPAN) <URL:http://www.perl.com>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 21:29:49 GMT
From: admin@net-ops.net (G. E. Terry)
Subject: Checking for a http RELOAD with perl
Message-Id: <6aiv8e$jvv$1@ns2.adult-host.net>
Does anyone know how I might check to see if a person reloaded a page or if it
was a new connection via a perl script?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:11:31 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Checking for a http RELOAD with perl
Message-Id: <6aj1q1$d2t$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to admin@net-ops.net (G. E. Terry):
>Does anyone know how I might check to see if a person reloaded a page or if it
>was a new connection via a perl script?
You're looking for the next newsgroup over: comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi.
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
"We can shower it with neutrons."
"Or we can do the Neutron Dance!" // MST3K
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:37:07 -0600
From: skulk@wam.umd.edu
Subject: Creating simlink?
Message-Id: <885852426.1562443788@dejanews.com>
Here's what I am having problems doing...i need to create a simlink in
my code. how do i do that? this is what the file is now:
if($pre eq "ISR") {
`indiv_cover.pl -a $prefix`;
}
else{
`ln -s /tmp/$prefix`;
}
the else loop is where it needs to be done
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:39:28 GMT
From: andrew@edoc.com (Andrew Williams)
Subject: Re: Crontab:Automatically Run a Perl Script?
Message-Id: <34cf107c.355737546@news.clark.net>
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:21:41 -0600, safepage@sprynet.com wrote:
>Crontab:Automatically Run a Perl Script?
>
>I need to automatically run a perl script using crontab, and have part of
>the crontab command but not all of it:
>
>58 23 * * *
>
>I was wondering to automatically run a perl script, would it be as simple
>as this:
>
>58 23 * * * /usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-bin/myscript.pl
>
>Or is there more to it than that?
>
>Help will be greatly appreciated on this...
as long as the program is executable and does not require any special
enviromental variables that should work fine.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:38:24 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: dmouse <gt1535b@acmey.gatech.edu>
Subject: Re: Exporter/package question
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980126135707.27056h-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On 26 Jan 1998, dmouse wrote:
> Tom Phoenix (rootbeer@teleport.com) wrote:
> : Importing doesn't normally create new variables; it gives new names (in
> : the current package) for existing ones (from another package). Is that
> : what you needed to know? Hope this helps!
>
> But what if two packages both import a variable from the same third
> package.
When one package imports the variable, it just makes a new name for it.
When the other imports the variable, it makes another new name for it.
It's the same variable, but it has several names.
For an example, suppose that the module Fred has a global variable called
$lunch. That variable's full name is $Fred::lunch, but within the package
(that is, inside the scope of a 'package Fred' declaration) it can be
called just plain $lunch.
I can use that variable in my code any time I want. I just call it by its
full name, $Fred::lunch, and everything is fine. But maybe I want to do it
differently. So now I go to import that variable, with a line like 'use
Fred qw($lunch)'. (We'll assume that the module's author wishes to make it
available for export.) Since my code is in package Tom, now that variable
can be called $Tom::lunch in addition to its other names.
But it gets better. Since my code is in package Tom, I can leave out the
'Tom::' part of the name. (There's one exception: If I have a my()
variable called $lunch, that takes precedence. But I won't keep mentioning
that exception.) So now, I can call this variable $lunch, just as Fred
does.
Now anybody who wants to can call this variable $Tom::lunch or
$Fred::lunch. And anybody in one of those packages can call it $lunch,
too. If Janet imports the variable from either my package or Fred's, it's
now going to be $Janet::lunch. Same variable, more names.
> Do they work like references where a change is propogated throughout
> the rest of the other packages?
They ought to, unless the author works hard to make something else happen.
> And what about Exporter? When more than one package has 'use Exporter'
> does Perl compile the Exporter code each time?
No, Perl remembers (in the special %INC variable) any modules which have
already been loaded, so they won't be loaded twice.
Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix Perl Training and Hacking Esperanto
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 04:37:51 GMT
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Freidl's book mystery
Message-Id: <885789441.53440@cabal>
In <6aaftr$4bj$1@samba.rahul.net> c.c.eiftj@04.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi) writes:
>In <34C89A00.60B1D6B2@5sigma.com> "Joseph N. Hall" <joseph@5sigma.com>
>writes:
>>Using regexes for comment preprocessing (and tokenizing in general)
>>is, well, basically a losing approach if you like speed.
>Please use a state machine, whether in perl or in C.
Are not regex's a way of expressing state machines?
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.
Support NoCeM http://www.cm.org/
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:03:58 -0000
From: "diogo" <np59re@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: help needed with Perl instalation with NT
Message-Id: <6aj15j$a3i$1@duke.telepac.pt>
Hello,
I have Windows NT an IIS installed on my server. I am now trying to install
Perl 5.
I went, and downloaded it from www.perl.com .
I unzipped it, and installed it.
But now, when I try to execute some cgi, it gives me this message:
HTTP Error 404
404 Not Found
The Web server cannot find the file or script you asked for. Please check
the URL to ensure that the path is correct.
Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists
I went through all teh FAQs, and I think I am doing everything right... Can
anyone help me?
Regards,
diogo.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:36:13 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: help needed with Perl instalation with NT
Message-Id: <6aj38d$d57$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to "diogo" <np59re@mail.telepac.pt>:
>I went through all teh FAQs, and I think I am doing everything right... Can
>anyone help me?
Not here. Hie to comp.infosystems.www.authoring.cgi.
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
"We can shower it with neutrons."
"Or we can do the Neutron Dance!" // MST3K
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 04:27:13 GMT
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Multpule responce regexp substation
Message-Id: <885788803.483456@cabal>
What I would like is if given a regexp sub like s/b/l/ and a string bobby
I would get an array with (bobby,lobby,bolby,lolby...,lolly). Is there
any module/techneek/ect that I can use. Currently I am splitting the
string into an array and manuly doing the work.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.
Support NoCeM http://www.cm.org/
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 22:41:24 GMT
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@mox.perl.com>
Subject: Re: Perl DB Question
Message-Id: <6aj3ek$e4d$1@csnews.cs.colorado.edu>
[courtesy cc of this posting sent to cited author via email]
In comp.lang.perl.misc,
GM <gmac@netcom.ca> writes:
:What I wish to do is have either a standard SQL DB or a flat-txt file DB
:that contains a listing of "foul words."
SQL? You're out of your mind. What is *with* people that they
hear database and think SQL? Oracle has you so brainwashed it's
disgusting. You want merely a hash database using DBM.
--tom
--
Tom Christiansen tchrist@jhereg.perl.com
I think it's a new feature. Don't tell anyone it was an accident. :-)
--Larry Wall on s/foo/bar/eieio in <10911@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV>
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 05:02:22 GMT
From: ? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Perl programming with NT4.0: sendmail problem
Message-Id: <885790912.790896@cabal>
In <En6r7o.9FM@ig.co.uk> Jacqui Caren <Jacqui.Caren@ig.co.uk> writes:
>[ newsgroups trimmed ]
>In article <884344586.182916@cabal>,
>? the platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> wrote:
[...]
>>Some versons of POP3 allow the posting of mail as well.
>Which commands in the POP3 RFCs cover about mail submission?
None, that are normaly extentions to the command set, it not my area of
expreses so you would have to look in the mail/POP3/ect FAQ's and
newsgroups.
>Do you know of any good POP enabled MUAs that use this and
>server side mail folder management?
No.
--
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header.
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.
Support NoCeM http://www.cm.org/
I'm sorry but I just don't consider 'because its yucky' a convincing argument
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:55:06 -0500
From: "Nick" <nmarino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Perl Source Obfuscator
Message-Id: <6aj0qr$g92$1@ha2.rdc1.pa.home.com>
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Eli the Bearded <*@qz.to> wrote in message ...
>From RFC 1925:
> With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is
> not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they
> are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them
> as they fly overhead.
>
>I think it apt here.
>
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jan 1998 17:06:38 -0500
From: Diego Zamboni <zamboni@cs.purdue.edu>
Subject: Running a package standalone?
Message-Id: <fw1zxuj3f5.fsf@narnia.cs.purdue.edu>
Hi,
I have some object packages (i.e. Perl packages that define objects) which
I would also like to be able to run standalone, for example, for testing
purposes.
So, my object has a run() method that gets called when the object is created
by someone else, but I would also want to be able to directly execute the
package file, and have it invoke the run() method by itself. However, this
automatic call should not happen when the package is loaded from another
program.
What I have found is that the caller function returns undef when there is
no caller information, so that I can do something like this:
package MyPackage;
sub run() {
# ...
}
# other method definitions
if(caller) {
MyPackage->new()->run();
# maybe other stuff
}
I have a couple of questions:
- Is there a more elegant or easy way of doing this?
- If anybody has suggestions about how to do this testing in a more elegant
way (but having the test code in the same file), I would be very grateful
to hear them.
Thanks,
--Diego
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:41:43 -0800
From: Tom Phoenix <rootbeer@teleport.com>
To: Ed Paquette <ed@ncia.net>
Subject: Re: Simple perl check.
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.980126143957.27056i-100000@user2.teleport.com>
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998, Ed Paquette wrote:
> Subject: Simple perl check.
Please check out this helpful information on choosing good subject
lines. It will be a big help to you in making it more likely that your
requests will be answered.
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/Dean_Roehrich/subjects.post
> I want to check a text file for a given string, if it's found I want it
> to tell me and STOP checking immediately... What is the **FASTEST** way
> to accomplish this?
Read a chunk at a time, stop when you find what you want. But there's
nothing Perl-specific about this algorithm, even though it would be easy
to implement in Perl. Hope this helps!
--
Tom Phoenix Perl Training and Hacking Esperanto
Randal Schwartz Case: http://www.rahul.net/jeffrey/ovs/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:52:24 GMT
From: FHeasley@chemistry.com (Frank)
Subject: Re: Survival Of perl
Message-Id: <34cd006c.22480485@news.halcyon.com>
On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:15:22 -0600, Cameron Dorey
<camerond@mail.uca.edu> wrote:
>Frank wrote:
>>
>> It's all well and good to advise
>> people to "use the perl modules" when the modules are pre-installed in
>> the version of perl you're using, or if you are writing programs on a
>> unix based system and can easily run makefile. However, most new
>> users are windows based, and are writing programs in dos windows under
>> windows 95. To them, perl modules are often useless.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Whoa, now. I'm one of those DOS/Win95 users here, and I surely find the
>modules useful (actually, I find them indispensible). I would bet that
>any other Win user feels the same way. Are you are talking about the
>modules which you would have to compile yourself using C++ because they
>are not included in either the AS or GS ports? Or mabye things like Tk,
>which is (so people say, I have no direct experience) incompatible with
>the AS port? Or mabye POSIX, which is incompatible with Windows (95 or
>NT)?
>
I'm referring to any module which will not self extract and install in
a windows environment. There are far to many of them, and it's
frustrating to download them from CPAN only to find that they are
unusable. Plus, if you can get them to work on your local machine,
you still have the additional problem of getting them installed on
your ISP's system - not always an easy thing to accomplish.
>OK, so there are things I cannot do. But, there are many, many more
>things I can do with modules, and if I want to grab one off of CPAN, I
>could go down the hall and get a coworker to compile it for me, since I
>don't have C++. Both ports, I believe (the GS port, I know) have
>makefile capabilities
>
>And, if I want to work directly with Windows stuff, like the Registry or
>OLE as it is implemented, I sure don't know how to do it without using
>the modules most generously provided as Win32::whatever.
>
All well and good. I didn't say they were useless, only that there is
considerable room for improvement.
>>
>> Similarly, the vi and emacs editors may indeed be very useful for
>> writing perl programs under UNIX, but unless you're willing to go out
>> and find (and learn) a windows or dos based version of them, they're
>> useless for most new users.
>
>So? As many people point out on a never-ending thread, all you need is a
>text editor, there are a bunch of good ones out there for writing perl,
>why is perl dead without vi or emacs? And why do you think they're so
>hard to find? This last statement sounds like you characterize all
>Windows users as lazy, only looking for brainless solutions, and I would
>loudly argue against that characterization. What is more likely is that
>the Windows "community" has a higher proportion of
>novice-to-intermediate computer programmers than unix, because many of
>the machines are used by people (such as myself) whose first priority is
>something else and the computer is more of a tool for them than a
>profession.
Absolutely correct. New users tend to be novices - it's almost a
requisite. And I'm not characterizing all windows users as lazy.
But, when it comes to implementing a desired function, most folks take
the most direct route (e.g. the "path of least resistance"). If you
want them to take your path, you lower the resistance. If you want
them to neglect your path, then you sit back and let others lower the
resistance barriers to the paths they are creating.
>
>>
>> In order for perl to survive, it must continue to grow. And in order
>> to grow, it must continue to meet the needs of established and new
>> users. For the time being, perl is successful in that regard.
>> However, there are powerful corporations who have vested interests in
>> competitive languages for web interfacing, and they will continue to
>> enhance those languages. If perl remains competitive with them, then
>> it will survive. If not, it will be replaced.
>
>This could be said about ANYTHING, computers or not, and even "powerful
>corporations" which have ongoing R&D efforts and marketing have been
>known to stumble and fall.
Absolutely correct: it's a truism that is applicable in many areas,
and it applies powerfully here.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:52:26 GMT
From: FHeasley@chemistry.com (Frank)
Subject: Re: Survival Of perl
Message-Id: <34ce01f1.22869523@news.halcyon.com>
On 26 Jan 1998 20:33:07 GMT, Zenin <zenin@best.com> wrote:
>Frank <FHeasley@chemistry.com> wrote:
>: perl is a very useful language for interfacing users to systems via
>: the world wide web.
>
> Just one of *hundreds*, if not *thousands*, of uses...
>
> While I am the primary Perl expert at a mostly Internet/Intranet
> development company, only about 1/10 of my work is in CGI or
> similar "web interfacing" programming. The other 90% is heavy
> Unix systems level and network programming because of Perl's vary
> fast development cycle. Since these applications rarely have short
> process life cycles, start up costs are not important and so it's
> speed rivals comparable C code.
>
>: In fact, that is probably where most of the new
>: users are coming from.
>
> Maybe so, maybe not. Either way I'd still say that web application
> programming is still a vary small piece of the bulk of Perl code
> being developed.
>
The cutting edge is a very small part of the knife, but it's the place
where the action is. The web is the cutting edge for perl.
>: It's also a very useful language for dealing with text on unix based systems
>: - I suspect that that is where much of its past strength is derived from.
>
> That's where it got it's roots, however it has since grown into an
> vary flexible and fast general purpose language. Yes, if I must do
> text processing my first choice is Perl, however as I stated above
> such use is rarely in my work routine and I'm sure there are
> thousands of other Perl programmers that use these features just as
> little as I do.
>
>: Which brings me to the next point. It's all well and good to advise
>: people to "use the perl modules" when the modules are pre-installed in
>: the version of perl you're using, or if you are writing programs on a
>: unix based system and can easily run makefile.
>
> Hmm...careful, you're about to make a fool of yourself.
>
>: However, most new users are windows based, and are writing programs in
>: dos windows under windows 95.
>
> Hmm, and you get your data from where, exactly..? It's not from
> this news group I assure you...
>
>: To them, perl modules are often useless.
>
> Woops! Now you've gone and made a fool of yourself. I warned you
> about that, didn't I...?
I'm a student of the language, and thus I'll readily admit to
ignorance.
As to being a fool, I've devoted considerable energy in my career
toward learning FORTRAN, BASIC, FORTH, PASACAL and dBase, and
currently PERL, but the current demand (y2k notwithstanding) appears
to be c++, and visual basic. So perhaps I'm a fool as well. Am I
foolish to be devoting energy and time to PERL?
>
> Hundreds of the pure Perl built modules will work out of the
> box on Win32 systems, and many of the ones that use linked C code
> not only will compile and run fine under Win32 they oftin are also
> available in precompiled packages for users without a compiler and
> are too lazy to install the Cygnus ported tools.
So?
>
>: Similarly, the vi and emacs editors may indeed be very useful for
>: writing perl programs under UNIX, but unless you're willing to go out
>: and find (and learn) a windows or dos based version of them, they're
>: useless for most new users.
>
> You just like looking like a fool, don't you?
>
> First off, what the hell do vi and emacs have to do with perl???
>
They were recommended in a previous thread as being particularly
useful for editing PERL. Personally, I prefer the DOS editor.
> Perl code is a simple text file. Granted, it's much easier to
> code using an editor that's built for code editing, but this is
> true with ALL software languages.
>
> Vi and emacs are not the end all be all of code editors, nor are
> they even the best (vi vs emacs vs whatever wars not withstanding).
> For myself, I do 99% of my work under Unix, yet I find vi clunky
> and emacs *far* to bloated, so I use an editor called "joe" (Joe's
> Own Editor). When I'm on (blgh) windows machines, the DOS version
> of joe works just fine.
>
> For those that like vi and emacs, guess what? THEY ARE BOTH FREELY
> AVAILABLE FOR BOTH DOS AND WINDOWS! A 2 min search on Yahoo will
> find DOZENS of sights to download them from.
>
>: In order for perl to survive, it must continue to grow.
>
> Have you *ever* been to CPAN??!?!?! Do you follow the p5p mailing
> list?!?!?! You must get all your info from the "Web Surfer
> Weekly" mags...
Yep, been to CPAN many xxx. Also been to Microsoft. Guess who's got
more money?
>
>: And in order
>: to grow, it must continue to meet the needs of established and new
>: users.
>
> See my last comments.
>
>: For the time being, perl is successful in that regard.
>
> For the last 10 YEARS Perl has been FANTASTIC in that regard.
>
>: However, there are powerful corporations who have vested interests in
>: competitive languages for web interfacing, and they will continue to
>: enhance those languages.
>
> Yes, and so far not one has turned out as anything but a piece of
> trash (IMHO, YMMV). Name ONE that even comes close to Perl in the
> real world, I dare you.
I sympathize fully. Huge corporations with monster marketing budgets
have honed the art of selling crap to the public to a fine edge
indeed. It's gotten to the point that no one will buy anything unless
it's crammed down their throats with huge marketing campagins, and it
doesn't matter how good, or lousy, the product may be. It's wrong,
and it stinks, but it's how things ARE.
>
>: If perl remains competitive with them, then
>: it will survive. If not, it will be replaced.
>
> The same argument can be said for EVERYTHING in the world, not even
> just the computer world.
And that is the power of the statement: it is a universal truth, and
one that must not be ignored.
In summary for this and the previous reply, and one I received
privately, folks, PERL is a very good product, with lots of potential,
and current usefulness across several platforms.
BUT unless it remains TOP NOTCH with regard to the alternatives, the
monster corporations will stomp on it and we'll all be eating crap in
the bargain.
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:05:38 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Survival Of perl
Message-Id: <6aj1f0$d1l$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to FHeasley@chemistry.com (Frank):
>I'm referring to any module which will not self extract and install in
>a windows environment.
"self-extract"? You want modules as ZIPs converted to EXEs?
Perl is more than Windows. We use a distribution format that any OS
can read, since there are free tools available to do so.
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
"We can shower it with neutrons."
"Or we can do the Neutron Dance!" // MST3K
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:08:01 GMT
From: chip@mail.atlantic.net (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Survival Of perl
Message-Id: <6aj1ji$d29$1@cyprus.atlantic.net>
According to FHeasley@chemistry.com (Frank):
>The cutting edge is a very small part of the knife, but it's the place
>where the action is. The web is the cutting edge for perl.
Bollocks. The web is lame. The web is boring. The web is nothing
more or less than producing formatted text on demand.
*yawn*
The cutting edge is Perl compilation and distributed safe Perl code
and better regexes and better performance and more reliability and
faster bug fixes and better support and modules and more modules and
MORE MODULES to do all kinds of neat stuff.
The web could die tomorrow and Perl would live on, hardly noticing.
--
Chip Salzenberg - a.k.a. - <chip@pobox.com>
-> Ask me about Perl training and consulting <-
"We can shower it with neutrons."
"Or we can do the Neutron Dance!" // MST3K
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:22:13 +0000
From: Mike Noel <noel@integrityonline.com>
Subject: using packages with perl on Windows (NT)?
Message-Id: <34CC9C15.829AA5F6@integrityonline.com>
Ok. I'm about ready to kill my windows machine. (I wonder how many
people actually make the change from UNIX to Windows successfully...)
I'm trying to install the libnet package on my windows system. The
first step in the installation process is:
perl Makefile.pl
I type this at the command line and I get:
Can't locate ExtUtils/MakeMaker.pm in @INC at Makefile.pl line 12.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Makefile.pl line 12.
So I double check to make sure that I have MakeMaker.pm. I do. It's in
c:\perl, with the perl.exe file. So then I think that maybe perl
doesn't know to look there (?) so I add:
use lib 'c:\\perl';
Now my error message is:
Can't locate lib.pm in @INC at Makefile.pl line 12.
BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at Makefile.pl line 12.
Well, lib.pm is in c:\perl on my system. What do I do next? I've
searched through some documentation about using perl with windows but
haven't seen anything special about using packages. Any help will be
appreciated.
Mike Noel
noel@integrityonline.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:20:09 -0800
From: Denis Goddard <dgoddard@us.oracle.com>
Subject: vi for Window$ (was:Re: Survival Of perl)
Message-Id: <34CCFE09.811F1B3@us.oracle.com>
I know this is getting off the thread, even off the ng, just trying to
help, please no flame!
Cameron Dorey wrote:
> Frank wrote:
> >
> > Similarly, the vi and emacs editors may indeed be very useful for
> > writing perl programs under UNIX, but unless you're willing to go out
> > and find (and learn) a windows or dos based version of them, they're
> > useless for most new users.
>
> So? As many people point out on a never-ending thread, all you need is a
> text editor, there are a bunch of good ones out there for writing perl,
> why is perl dead without vi or emacs?
Check out Lemmy. It is, IMHO, at *lesat* as good as my fave UNIX vi
variants, and there is both
a 16- and 32-bit version. Lemmy rocks!
Win95/NT:
ftp://ftp.accessone.com/pub/misc/jai/lemmy_2.0/lemmy20.exe
Win 3.1:
ftp://ftp.accessone.com/pub/misc/jai/lemmy_1.0/lem1032s.exe
And now back to our discussion of Perl Thingies...
-Denis
------------------------------
Date: 8 Mar 97 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 8 Mar 97)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V8 Issue 1734
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