[32888] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4166 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Fri Mar 7 05:17:36 2014
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 02:17:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 7 Mar 2014 Volume: 11 Number: 4166
Today's topics:
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <kaz@kylheku.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <kaz@kylheku.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <news@todbe.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <news@todbe.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever (Tim McDaniel)
Re: Now on theism and whatever <news@todbe.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <kaz@kylheku.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <kaz@kylheku.com>
Re: use strict; use warnings; <uri@stemsystems.com>
Re: use strict; use warnings; <news@todbe.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:36:59 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <b10ih9t2aao38cupug8s4pd3d6u5cmi710@4ax.com>
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:58:06 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
wrote:
>> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>> To the believer, it means someone you know will do as promised.
> No, what you're talking about is faith as a synonym for "confidence".
> Faith in the context of religion is the blind belief in what an authority
> or book says.
That's how atheists see it. The difference is, believers know God like
you know another human. Their confidence rests on His promises made and
recorded by authors of the Bible.
So the question is whom to trust.
The Declaration of Independence was written more than 200 years ago, but
people generally accept its authenticity. So how far back in time is too
far to trust?
I trust Moses report that God parted the Red Sea. I don't reject it just
because I've never seen a miracle with my own eyes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:43:01 -0600
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87vbvqyjui.fsf@castleamber.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> writes:
> That's how atheists see it. The difference is, believers know God like
> you know another human.
Yup, that's why if you put a few of them together each start to explain
to the others how they are believing it wrong.
--
John Bokma j3b
Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Perl Consultancy: http://castleamber.com/
Perl for books: http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-books.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:46:23 -0800
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <sv1ih9hdb0tejf0dpanaabcs0v493j40dm@4ax.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:58:06 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>
>>> To the believer, it means someone you know will do as promised.
>
>> No, what you're talking about is faith as a synonym for "confidence".
>> Faith in the context of religion is the blind belief in what an authority
>> or book says.
>
>That's how atheists see it. The difference is, believers know God like
>you know another human. Their confidence rests on His promises made and
>recorded by authors of the Bible.
Exactly which Bible are you talking about? The Bible for Monotheism
version 1, for Monotheism version 2, or for Monotheism version 3?
Let alone all those minor versions in particular for 2.x and (to a
somewhat lesser degree) 3.x?
Or are you talking about the Camel book, the Lama book, and it's
relatives?
>I trust Moses report that God parted the Red Sea. I don't reject it just
>because I've never seen a miracle with my own eyes.
Oh well, good for you. Which Perl command did he use?
jue
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 00:07:28 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <272ih9d3i1g0hn8t3kllbcrqjl9a6cg4mi@4ax.com>
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:43:01 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
wrote:
>> believers know God like you know another human.
> Yup, that's why if you put a few of them together each start to explain
> to the others how they are believing it wrong.
There are many misunderstandings about God. But his chief adversary is
responsible for that.
Winter's Tale (2014) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/ is a fictional
account of demons working behind the scenes, in opposition to God.
The movie has fantastic elements, but the idea is true. It was explained
in the Bible long ago (Job).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:23:16 -0600
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87ob1iyhzf.fsf@castleamber.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> writes:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:43:01 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> believers know God like you know another human.
>
>> Yup, that's why if you put a few of them together each start to explain
>> to the others how they are believing it wrong.
>
> There are many misunderstandings about God. But his chief adversary is
> responsible for that.
Yes, they all (the above few) are exactly saying that ;-)
--
John Bokma j3b
Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Perl Consultancy: http://castleamber.com/
Perl for books: http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-books.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 00:35:10 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <nj4ih9pfqjb96iplsn5j529v9hqth49b1j@4ax.com>
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:23:16 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
wrote:
> Yes
Quick replies, I see your news host is the same one I use. It's a great
free service, but I don't know how they justify the expense of operating
it. Usenet's glory days are long gone.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:06:37 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <20140306170541.381@kylheku.com>
On 2014-03-07, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 17:43:01 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> believers know God like you know another human.
>
>> Yup, that's why if you put a few of them together each start to explain
>> to the others how they are believing it wrong.
>
> There are many misunderstandings about God. But his chief adversary is
> responsible for that.
>
> Winter's Tale (2014) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/ is a fictional
> account of demons working behind the scenes, in opposition to God.
Wow, you recognize the possibility that some account of this insane
bullshit can be fictional!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 02:13:10 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <ie9ih95kaj3482c7h2e3534bke77sqnq57@4ax.com>
On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
wrote:
>> Winter's Tale (2014) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/ is a fictional
>> account of demons working behind the scenes, in opposition to God.
> Wow, you recognize the possibility that some account of this insane
> bullshit can be fictional!
Insanity is when you're unable to tell what's real. Have you seen the
movie? Or read the book of Job?
I'm not saying atheists are insane, but they fail to perceive dimensions
which cannot be directly observed.
Prior to Einstein, people didn't even know E=mc2, or that time slows as
speed approaches light. What we don't know is much greater than what we
do know.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:40:08 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87ob1i68af.fsf@stemsystems.com>
>>>>> "JE" == Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> writes:
JE> Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
>> Atheism is dogma for the lazy man. They're not expected to read the
>> Bible.
JE> What does religion have to do with the Bible? A believer in Shintoism,
JE> Shamanism, or Hinduism (just to pick a few) couldn't care less about
JE> that fairy tale book.
not only is it a fairy tale, it is cherry picked by all who 'quote'
it. it has so many contradictory points and even worse so many 'rules'
that aren't observed by anyone today, even the most religious jews (and
i know plenty). when is the last animal sacrifice you have seen or even
heard about? of course all the kosher laws are totally discarded by
everyone but orthodox jews. using the bible to defend any societal rules
is beyond dumb. the most observant followers are not even close to what
is described therein. anyone claiming to adhere to the bible is just a
liar and they can blather all they want otherwise but it is a fact.
BTW, i studied much of the bible in hebrew. it is very different than
all the translations out there which is another major source of
misinterpretation.
i can't believe we have a religion thread brought on by the new
troll. :(
uri
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:41:14 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87k3c6688l.fsf@stemsystems.com>
>>>>> "JE" == Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> writes:
>> I trust Moses report that God parted the Red Sea. I don't reject it just
>> because I've never seen a miracle with my own eyes.
JE> Oh well, good for you. Which Perl command did he use?
oh, you should know that one easily. split!
uri
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:11:34 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <MPG.2d82f4e19acaa5869897c7@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <87k3c6688l.fsf@stemsystems.com>, uri@stemsystems.com says...
>
> >>>>> "JE" == Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >> I trust Moses report that God parted the Red Sea. I don't reject it just
> >> because I've never seen a miracle with my own eyes.
>
> JE> Oh well, good for you. Which Perl command did he use?
>
> oh, you should know that one easily. split!
Well done!
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 21:12:45 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <MPG.2d82f52ae9fea7069897c8@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <87ob1i68af.fsf@stemsystems.com>, uri@stemsystems.com says...
> i can't believe we have a religion thread brought on by the new
> troll. :(
Ha ha, he's playin us like a fiddle! :-)
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 03:16:14 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <20140306191529.858@kylheku.com>
On 2014-03-06, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com> wrote:
> In article <8761nrhwyp.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>, rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com
> says...
>>
>> This is a loaded definition. Considering Sturgeon's law, it can be
>> expected that "90% of all new ideas turn out to be crap".
>
> And 99% of new ideas are not really new. People just don't know history. Of
> the 1% that are new, yes 90% of those turn out to be crap.
Ironic read in a ... Perl newsgroup.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:31:22 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <lfbei7$qib$1@dont-email.me>
On 3/6/2014 13:56, Trifle Menot wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>>> To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
>
>> In the context of religion.
>
> Atheists equate God with religion. That's their mistake.
>
> Atheism is dogma for the lazy man. They're not expected to read the
> Bible.
The bible - a book written by men to keep other men in line.
Why on earth would it matter if someone has read it or not.
PS: I went to a parochial school, so I had it imprinted - took
a while to shake free of the dogma - a driver's license helped.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:37:02 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <lfbess$u9r$1@dont-email.me>
On 3/6/2014 18:13, Trifle Menot wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Winter's Tale (2014) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/ is a fictional
>>> account of demons working behind the scenes, in opposition to God.
>
>> Wow, you recognize the possibility that some account of this insane
>> bullshit can be fictional!
>
> Insanity is when you're unable to tell what's real. Have you seen the
> movie? Or read the book of Job?
>
> I'm not saying atheists are insane, but they fail to perceive dimensions
> which cannot be directly observed.
And you can ? Now I understand. The bible that you believe in was
voted on by a bunch of Roman idiots that decided which books to put
in and which to leave out - doesn't sound very godly to me.
> Prior to Einstein, people didn't even know E=mc2, or that time slows as
> speed approaches light. What we don't know is much greater than what we
> do know.
Exactly, and science is what proves things - not blind faith.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:15:29 +0000 (UTC)
From: tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <lfbo60$nlo$1@reader1.panix.com>
In article <87k3c6688l.fsf@stemsystems.com>,
Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "JE" == J_rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >> I trust Moses report that God parted the Red Sea. I don't reject it just
> >> because I've never seen a miracle with my own eyes.
>
> JE> Oh well, good for you. Which Perl command did he use?
>
>oh, you should know that one easily. split!
"Lord, I tried to explain your ten commandments. But the people said
'There are but nine. Where is the tenth?' I explained that the last
was [9] because the first was [0], but they heeded me not. So I was
angry and I undeffed the array."
"Take thou a hash table, and I shall write in it {1} through {10}."
--
Tim McDaniel, tmcd@panix.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 22:29:45 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <lfbp0m$ghi$3@dont-email.me>
On 3/6/2014 22:15, Tim McDaniel wrote:
>
> "Lord, I tried to explain your ten commandments. But the people said
> 'There are but nine. Where is the tenth?' I explained that the last
> was [9] because the first was [0], but they heeded me not. So I was
> angry and I undeffed the array."
>
> "Take thou a hash table, and I shall write in it {1} through {10}."
And on the following day I rested - with feelings of accomplishment.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:56:07 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <20140306224328.762@kylheku.com>
On 2014-03-07, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 01:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Winter's Tale (2014) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1837709/ is a fictional
>>> account of demons working behind the scenes, in opposition to God.
>
>> Wow, you recognize the possibility that some account of this insane
>> bullshit can be fictional!
>
> Insanity is when you're unable to tell what's real.
For instance, when you insist that that which has never been observed
exists.
> I'm not saying atheists are insane, but they fail to perceive dimensions
"Atheists" is not a meaningful class of people, just like "non-fish" or
"non-bicycles" are not meaningful classes of objects.
Two atheists might have nothing else in common other than not believing
that there are gods.
They could have completely different justifications for their non-belief
or disbelief, including various bad justifications.
One can believe in bunk, like that he is on a lucky streak in the
casino, yet be an atheist.
> which cannot be directly observed.
That is false; some atheists have sophisticated instruments which
extend their senses.
Also, among people who believe in the theory of evolution, there
are many atheiststs. Evolution cannot be "directly observed".
> Prior to Einstein, people didn't even know E=mc2, or that time slows as
> speed approaches light.
Many people still don't, and one ingredient in that ignorance is ... religion.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 2014 08:17:30 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <65sih9lqflvsvpcaq29edpouc3beee09eu@4ax.com>
On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:56:07 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
wrote:
>> I'm not saying atheists are insane, but they fail to perceive dimensions
>> which cannot be directly observed.
> some atheists have sophisticated instruments which extend their senses.
"Direct observation" includes any technology man can devise, such as the
International Linear Collider.
Science has limits. The quantum observer effect makes it impossible to
analyze everything God created. The potential for scientific knowledge
is limited to a subset of the physical universe. Science can't show us
the dimension where God exists.
It's real, but to see it, faith is required.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2014 09:18:16 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <20140307005549.515@kylheku.com>
On 2014-03-07, Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Mar 2014 06:56:07 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not saying atheists are insane, but they fail to perceive dimensions
>>> which cannot be directly observed.
>
>> some atheists have sophisticated instruments which extend their senses.
>
> "Direct observation" includes any technology man can devise, such as the
> International Linear Collider.
Sure.
> Science has limits.
>
> The quantum observer effect makes it impossible to
> analyze everything God created.
> The potential for scientific knowledge
> is limited to a subset of the physical universe. Science can't show us
> the dimension where God exists.
>
> It's real, but to see it, faith is required.
Okay, okay, sure.
But then, here is a problem.
Supposedly, not only is faith required, but Jesus is required, the Holy Spirit
is required, the Trinity is required, Adam and Eve are required, the Earth is
under 10,000 years old is required, Jonah swallowed by the whale and
regurgitated is required, ... And if your faith happens to make you see Allah
instead or whatever, then you're going to hell is required.
There is faith in some kind of god: that is one thing. Then there is faith in
all these overly specific details that are *obviously* made up.
(Why all those details? The stories with numerous characers? Because
simpletons require details in order to believe a story. The more details
there are the wider opens their gullibility. The wise man believes less,
the more embelishments and details there are in a story.)
But here is the ultimate kicker.
If there really is a god, and that god reveals itself to humanity (say by
coming forth and demonstrating unimaginable powers), all the religious
the world will be the first to deny that the creature is god,
because it doesn't match the details in their respective doctrines.
"So you can make a new galaxy suddenly appear out of nowhere? That means
nothing: you can't be god because you won't corroborate the story of Jesus
Christ, our Savior! You, you ... must be Satan!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:43:58 -0500
From: Uri Guttman <uri@stemsystems.com>
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <87d2hy6841.fsf@stemsystems.com>
>>>>> "$" == $Bill <news@todbe.com> writes:
$> Larry is religious - could be some spillover there. ;)
and yet he doesn't talk about it, look down on any others with differing
views, and even better he is fine with evolution. being a friend of
larry's i can vouch for how he carries himself in those areas.
uri
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:40:50 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <lfbf3v$u9r$2@dont-email.me>
On 3/6/2014 18:43, Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>> "$" == $Bill <news@todbe.com> writes:
>
> $> Larry is religious - could be some spillover there. ;)
>
> and yet he doesn't talk about it, look down on any others with differing
> views, and even better he is fine with evolution. being a friend of
> larry's i can vouch for how he carries himself in those areas.
Totally agree and I worked with Larry many years in the infancy of
Perl.
PS: That comment was just in regard to the 'bless' command and
not serious in any way.
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 4166
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