[32887] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 4165 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Mar 6 18:09:40 2014
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:09:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 6 Mar 2014 Volume: 11 Number: 4165
Today's topics:
[CM] OStatic on Package Mgmt & Perl <rsw@therandymon.com>
Best SEO Services in INDIA | USA | UK | CANADA | SINGAP sravtclave@gmail.com
Re: last iteration of a for loop <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Now on theism and whatever <news@todbe.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <john@castleamber.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: Now on theism and whatever <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Re: use strict; use warnings; <johnblack@nospam.com>
Re: use strict; use warnings; (Tim McDaniel)
Re: use strict; use warnings; <kaz@kylheku.com>
Re: use strict; use warnings; <news@todbe.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 14:56:26 +0000 (UTC)
From: RS Wood <rsw@therandymon.com>
Subject: [CM] OStatic on Package Mgmt & Perl
Message-Id: <lfa2ap$h8p$1@solani.org>
From the «CPANties» department:
Title: Package Management and Perl
Author: Jon Buys
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2014 21:44:16 -0500
Link: http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ostatic/~3/MUI_H7HBfj4/story01.htm
[image 2][1]
Anyone who lived through the bad old days of compiling software from source
on Linux remembers well the frustration of upgrading one package only to find
that it breaks another. I like to think that those days are behind us; and,
for the most part, they are. Unfortunately, I found myself in an eerily
similar situation after patching a CentOS 6 server, and then trying to run a
scheduled Perl job.
Package managers are the life blood of a Linux distribution. Without them,
the entire house of cards starts to fall down. The open nature of Linux lends
to many different people working on many different projects, each bit fitting
into another bit in just the right way. I always tell the teams I work with,
"stay in the box", as much as possible, you should stay within what the
distribution you are working with gives you in the package manager. Yes, it
might be a bit out of date, but the frustration you save by having a
reliable, and upgradeable system is well worth the cost. There are,
obviously, times when stepping outside the box is warranted, but do so
knowing full well what you are getting in to, how it works, and what else you
might be affecting.
When just using a Linux system, this advice works well, but developing on one
can be a slightly different story, especially when working with a system that
comes with it's own package manager like CPAN, the Comprehensive Perl Archive
Network[3]. A developer contacted me the other day complaining that my
patches broke his Perl script, and demanded that I restore a library from
backup. My response was that course of action was probably not a good idea,
since the entire system was upgraded at once, and that he should fix the
script. It was the type of classic back and forth, sysadmin to developer,
banter that is generally, and rightfully, looked down upon in this devops
world. When he told me that simply fixing the script wasn't an option, I went
in to dig a bit deeper and sort out the issue.
The script was fairly short and easy enough to sort out what part was
failing. The script compiled some data, created a file, and then scp'd the
file to another server. Commenting out one line that called the scp let the
script finish without error, but why was that method causing the error? Turns
out, the script was using parts of Perl that were upgraded during patching,
and calling other parts that were not. After talking to the admin who setup
the machine, it became clear that this system had been Frankensteined.
The initial Perl install and the first modules were all installed from the
official CentOS repositories with yum, but that wasn't enough. The repository
was either too out of date, or didn't contain the modules that the developers
wanted to use, so the admin used CPAN to fill in the blanks. Now there are
two versions of Perl modules installed managed by two different package
managers, but that wasn't quite enough yet. To top it off the admin had
installed a few more modules from source, so now there were the two package
managers plus modules that had to be updated completely separately. It became
readily apparent that the wonder was not that the system was broken, but that
it had ever worked at all.
So, after digging into yum, cpan, and downloading and compiling one module
from source, the developers Perl script ran again, and all was right with the
world. Until the next time something is updated. So, the moral of the story
is not just to stay in the box, it is more to pick a box and then stay in the
new box. Perl is a powerful language, and the modules are easy to work with,
but both the language and the modules should be used with care.
Related Activities Related Software Related Blog Posts
* Comments (1)[4] * Perl[7] (10 alternatives[8], 1 review[9]) * Totally Legal, LMDE Reviews, and R-E-S-P-E-C-T [13] (post comment[14])
* Post a Comment[5] * centos[10] (1 alternative[11], post review[12]) * Three Turning Points, KDE Releases, and Loving Ubuntu[15] (post comment[16]
* Ask a Question[6] )
* Linux Gamers Have More Choices Than Ever[17] (post comment[18])
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Links:
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[2]: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4099/4777335328_3cc363c419_t.jpg (image)
[3]: http://www.cpan.org (link)
[4]: http://ostatic.com/blog/package-management-and-perl#comments (link)
[5]: http://ostatic.com/blog/package-management-and-perl#addres (link)
[6]: http://ostatic.com/blog/package-management-and-perl#addrelquestion (link)
[7]: http://ostatic.com/perl#rss (link)
[8]: http://ostatic.com/perl#alternatives (link)
[9]: http://ostatic.com/perl#comments (link)
[10]: http://ostatic.com/centos#rss (link)
[11]: http://ostatic.com/centos#alternatives (link)
[12]: http://ostatic.com/centos#comments (link)
[13]: http://ostatic.com/blog/totally-legal-lmde-reviews-and-r-e-s-p-e-c-t-0#rss (link)
[14]: http://ostatic.com/blog/totally-legal-lmde-reviews-and-r-e-s-p-e-c-t-0#comments (link)
[15]: http://ostatic.com/blog/three-turning-points-kde-releases-and-loving-ubuntu#rss (link)
[16]: http://ostatic.com/blog/three-turning-points-kde-releases-and-loving-ubuntu#comments (link)
[17]: http://ostatic.com/blog/linux-gamers-have-more-choices-than-ever#rss (link)
[18]: http://ostatic.com/blog/linux-gamers-have-more-choices-than-ever#comments (link)
[19]: http://ads.gigaom.com/redirect/rss/ (link)
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[22]: http://share.feedsportal.com/share/twitter/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fostatic.com%2Fblog%2Fpackage-management-and-perl%23buzzt=Package+Management+and+Perl (link)
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[32]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/1/rc.htm (link)
[33]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/1/rc.img (image)
[34]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/2/rc.htm (link)
[35]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/2/rc.img (image)
[36]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/3/rc.htm (link)
[37]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/sc/4/rc/3/rc.img (image)
[38]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/a2.htm (link)
[39]: http://da.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/a2.img (image)
[40]: http://pi.feedsportal.com/r/186531293341/u/49/f/646451/c/34998/s/37d73a4d/a2t.img (image)
[41]: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ostatic?a=MUI_H7HBfj4:hZxvlZ93DIA:yIl2AUoC8zA (link)
[42]: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ostatic?d=yIl2AUoC8zA (image)
[43]: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ostatic?a=MUI_H7HBfj4:hZxvlZ93DIA:V_sGLiPBpWU (link)
[44]: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/ostatic?i=MUI_H7HBfj4:hZxvlZ93DIA:V_sGLiPBpWU (image)
[45]: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/ostatic/~4/MUI_H7HBfj4 (image)
------------------------------
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Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 18:02:22 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Subject: Re: last iteration of a for loop
Message-Id: <87a9d3i4sx.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>
Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
> Quoth Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>:
>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> writes:
>> >
>> > Yes, it would. Given that perl has already run out of SvFLAGS, and goes
>> > through some nasty contortions to reuse flag bits wherever it's
>> > unambiguous, I don't think adding new bits just for the sake of given/
>> > when is a good trade-off. Nor is extending the size of the flags field:
>> > that would make every SV larger, reducing the number of SVs which fit in
>> > processor cache, and making every program somewhat slower.
>>
>> Keeping additional meta-information about 'Perl constants' supposed to
>> be used solely while compiling wouldn't necessarily make anything
>> 'larger' at run time.
>
> Given that perl has BEGIN and eval/do/require, any information that
> might be needed at some later compile time has to also be preserved at
> run time. You're right that this information could be kept only for
> constants, and could be kept out-of-band in some way so it's only
> accessed when it's needed, but this still means increasing the storage
> required for a constant sub.
A 'constant' PVIV or PVNV has two length fields like any other
'PV-thing' and considering that it's string representation won't grow,
one of them isn't really needed. It also has a reference count which
isn't really needed (or, more correctly, most bits of which aren't ever
going to be used). It's very likely that there are more unused bits in
this memory area, malloc metainformation would come to mind here. Not
caching 'type conversion results' in the original object itself on the
grounds that they'll be rarely - if ever - useful for 'typical cases'
might also be a viable option.
This is an engineering problem and it can certainly be solved in the
sense of meeting any more specific technical requirements than "don't do
anything because that would cause an effect".
> constant.pm goes to some trouble to minimise this storage, because it
> makes a measurable difference to the memory usage of Perl programs;
> reversing that for the sake of a questionable syntactic shortcut
> doesn't seem like a good idea.
That would be 'for the sake of a standard feature of every high-level
programming language I've used so far which Perl unfortunately
traditionally lacks' (or 'used to lack until 2007 and may again lack "in
the future"').
>> > Perl's design is that is has polymorphic types and monomorphic
>> > operators. Trying to create operators which are polymorphic on the types
>> > of their operands never ends well; instead, different operators should
>> > be used, which coerce their operands as appropriate.
>>
>> I don't disagree with statement. What I was writing about was to enable
>> the Perl compiler to select 'an operator' for a comparison at
>> compile-time, based on the known type of one of its arguments.
>
> 'Selecting an operator at compile time based on the known type of its
> arguments' is just another way of saying 'creating an operator which is
> polymorphic on the types of its operands'.
'An operator which is polymorphic on the types of its operands' would be
a multi-method (or 'a generic function' in CLOS terminology) which can
be used at run time and which inspects the types of its actual operands
for dispatching whenever it is invoked. Making the compiler infer an
existing non-polymorphic operator based on the 'static' type of one
operand is something rather different from that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 00:16:40 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <lf9ata$jga$1@dont-email.me>
On 3/5/2014 19:22, John Black wrote:
> In article <zXPRu.263$F02.95@fx01.iad>, news@todbe.com says...
>>
>> On 3/5/2014 14:19, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>
>>> 1. Stop feeding the troll.
>>
>> I'll feed whomever I wish to feed. One can't bring up off topic
>> religious crap without some sort of chastisement.
>>
>>> 2. Stop being an offensive git. Atheist bigotry is no better than any
>>> other form of religious bigotry.
>>
>> An opinion doesn't constitute bigotry - I tolerate all religions
>> even if they are pure ignorance. It's been my experience that
>> atheists are far more tolerant than a lot of theists you'll run
>> into. Most theists are conservatives - by definition that would
>> mean less tolerant from my observation.
>
> Oh great, now we're discussing religion && politics!
I never mentioned politics. Conservatism doesn't necessarily connote politics:
conservative
adj 1: resistant to change [ant: {liberal}]
n 1: a person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas
[syn: {conservative}, {conservativist}] [ant: {liberal},
{liberalist}, {progressive}]
>But since you brought it up, in my
> opinion, liberals are far less tolerant than conservatives. They are so intolerant of any
> ideas except their own that they routinely shout down speakers, throw things at speakers,
> organize to prevent speakers from appearing, steal all the newspapers on an entire campus to
> prevent people from reading something they might not like, etc. Conservative speakers have
> had to withdraw from speaking engagements or else be forced to hire extra security to protect
> them from liberals making threats of violence. None of this stuff is ever done by
> conservatives who prefer all sides to be heard and are ususally willing to debate calmly.
Sounds more like what the tea party would do - or maybe a republican filibuster to
prevent letting the opposition speak or trying to make any sort of compromise - I
suspect you are a conservative yourself or you wouldn't defend them. I'm not a
fan of either of our main political parties, but progressive would be a nice goal.
Logical thinking people make the best programmers - esp mixed with some creativity.
Believing something just because someone tells you to isn't logical - I would therefore
expect to find less theism in programmers.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 20:51:42 +0000
From: Rainer Weikusat <rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <8761nrhwyp.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>
"$Bill" <news@todbe.com> writes:
> On 3/5/2014 19:22, John Black wrote:
>> In article <zXPRu.263$F02.95@fx01.iad>, news@todbe.com says...
>>>
>>> On 3/5/2014 14:19, Ben Morrow wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Stop feeding the troll.
>>>
>>> I'll feed whomever I wish to feed. One can't bring up off topic
>>> religious crap without some sort of chastisement.
>>>
>>>> 2. Stop being an offensive git. Atheist bigotry is no better than any
>>>> other form of religious bigotry.
>>>
>>> An opinion doesn't constitute bigotry - I tolerate all religions
>>> even if they are pure ignorance. It's been my experience that
>>> atheists are far more tolerant than a lot of theists you'll run
>>> into. Most theists are conservatives - by definition that would
>>> mean less tolerant from my observation.
>>
>> Oh great, now we're discussing religion && politics!
>
> I never mentioned politics. Conservatism doesn't necessarily connote politics:
>
> conservative
> adj 1: resistant to change [ant: {liberal}]
> n 1: a person who is reluctant to accept changes and new ideas
> [syn: {conservative}, {conservativist}] [ant: {liberal},
> {liberalist}, {progressive}]
This is a loaded definition. Considering Sturgeon's law, it can be
expected that "90% of all new ideas turn out to be crap". Further,
change implies disruption which is in itself bad. There's a double
whammy here, first, everything gets turned upside down and back again
and everyone has to cope with that instead of doing something more
productive, and then, 'we' learn by painful experience why starting down
this road was stupid idea to begin with.
There are exceptions but they're rare.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:03:20 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <MPG.2d829e804f06aabc9897c4@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <lf9ata$jga$1@dont-email.me>, news@todbe.com says...
> >But since you brought it up, in my
> > opinion, liberals are far less tolerant than conservatives. They are so intolerant of any
> > ideas except their own that they routinely shout down speakers, throw things at speakers,
> > organize to prevent speakers from appearing, steal all the newspapers on an entire campus to
> > prevent people from reading something they might not like, etc. Conservative speakers have
> > had to withdraw from speaking engagements or else be forced to hire extra security to protect
> > them from liberals making threats of violence. None of this stuff is ever done by
> > conservatives who prefer all sides to be heard and are ususally willing to debate calmly.
>
> Sounds more like what the tea party would do
Again, its the opposite. The tea party protests were totally peaceful (except for the one
example of some union guys who attacked a tea party member). Contrast those rallies with
left wing protests like Occupy Wallstreet and many others that involve violence, vandalism
and hundreds upon hundreds of arrests.
> - or maybe a republican filibuster to
> prevent letting the opposition speak or trying to make any sort of compromise
Funny. The filibuster gets used all the time by both parties (yes, probably too much but all
it does is move the bar from 50 to 60 votes). It was used so much by democrats during the
Bush administration that Republicans tossed around the idea of getting rid of it. Dems like
Harry Reid lost their minds at the possibility of doing that (google his hypocritical
quotes), and then when he got the majority, promptly did just that.
> Logical thinking people make the best programmers - esp mixed with some creativity.
> Believing something just because someone tells you to isn't logical - I would therefore
> expect to find less theism in programmers.
I agree to a point. I'm not a theist either. But I have seen many very intelligent and
logical theists in the computer field. I have my own theories on what makes this possible.
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:14:01 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <1qohh9h5rnsos1f1tmo1p7hprk16d9648t@4ax.com>
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 20:51:42 +0000, Rainer Weikusat
<rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com> wrote:
> Considering Sturgeon's law, it can be expected that "90% of all new
> ideas turn out to be crap". Further, change implies disruption which
> is in itself bad.
Perl 5 docs often say "This might change in a future release."
I wish they would leave Perl 5 features alone and just fix bugs. People
who want to change things can play with Perl 6.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:29:14 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <6bphh9hmn04e7d8d0u9d98mml9v4c736jo@4ax.com>
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:03:20 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
wrote:
> I have seen many very intelligent and logical theists in the computer field.
> I have my own theories on what makes this possible.
The word "faith" means different things to different people.
To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
To the believer, it means someone you know will do as promised. Nothing
illogical about that. E.g, married people have "faith" that their spouse
will be true. Science can't help you with that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87mwh3ypin.fsf@castleamber.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> writes:
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:03:20 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have seen many very intelligent and logical theists in the computer field.
>> I have my own theories on what makes this possible.
>
> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>
> To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
In the context of religion.
Anyway, keep fanning that fire. I had faith in you not keeping up your
promise ;-)
--
John Bokma j3b
Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Perl Consultancy: http://castleamber.com/
Perl for books: http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-books.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:46:44 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <evqhh9h4sbbbjlb97vm54cos2nlc4m8imv@4ax.com>
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
wrote:
> Anyway, keep fanning that fire. I had faith in you not keeping up your
> promise ;-)
Did you notice the thread subject? New thread, new fire.
People not interested can filter on that.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 21:56:55 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <eerhh9te1m7ol6rgf8kur0h13r0pgr3189@4ax.com>
On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
wrote:
>> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>> To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
> In the context of religion.
Atheists equate God with religion. That's their mistake.
Atheism is dogma for the lazy man. They're not expected to read the
Bible.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:58:39 -0600
From: John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <87iorryoog.fsf@castleamber.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> writes:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, keep fanning that fire. I had faith in you not keeping up your
>> promise ;-)
>
> Did you notice the thread subject? New thread, new fire.
No surprise. And that's one reason I keep away from religion.
--
John Bokma j3b
Blog: http://johnbokma.com/ Perl Consultancy: http://castleamber.com/
Perl for books: http://johnbokma.com/perl/help-in-exchange-for-books.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 14:11:35 -0800
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <pashh915lkgih8f22712l3lnophk1jdoiu@4ax.com>
Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid> wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 15:40:32 -0600, John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>>> To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
>
>> In the context of religion.
>
>Atheists equate God with religion. That's their mistake.
Hardly.
That applies at most to monotheistic religions, but certainly not to
others.
>Atheism is dogma for the lazy man. They're not expected to read the
>Bible.
What does religion have to do with the Bible? A believer in Shintoism,
Shamanism, or Hinduism (just to pick a few) couldn't care less about
that fairy tale book.
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:53:26 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <MPG.2d82b86051e7528a9897c5@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <8761nrhwyp.fsf@sable.mobileactivedefense.com>, rweikusat@mobileactivedefense.com
says...
>
> This is a loaded definition. Considering Sturgeon's law, it can be
> expected that "90% of all new ideas turn out to be crap".
And 99% of new ideas are not really new. People just don't know history. Of the 1% that are
new, yes 90% of those turn out to be crap.
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:58:06 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <MPG.2d82b978181b81d19897c6@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <6bphh9hmn04e7d8d0u9d98mml9v4c736jo@4ax.com>, triflemenot@protocol.invalid says...
>
> On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 15:03:20 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have seen many very intelligent and logical theists in the computer field.
> > I have my own theories on what makes this possible.
>
> The word "faith" means different things to different people.
>
> To the atheist, it means baseless superstition, blind belief.
>
> To the believer, it means someone you know will do as promised. Nothing
> illogical about that. E.g, married people have "faith" that their spouse
> will be true. Science can't help you with that.
No, what you're talking about is faith as a synonym for "confidence". Faith in the context
of religion is the blind belief in what an authority or book says. Blind because you have no
proof of it, for if you did, you would not require faith to believe it.
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 23:08:22 +0000
From: Trifle Menot <triflemenot@protocol.invalid>
Subject: Re: Now on theism and whatever
Message-Id: <fevhh995mk7qa4h585bg45p7r3d9896sne@4ax.com>
On Thu, 6 Mar 2014 16:53:26 -0600, John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
wrote:
> 99% of new ideas are not really new. People just don't know history.
Edmund Burke wrote something similar. I've seen the truth of his words.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 21:22:20 -0600
From: John Black <johnblack@nospam.com>
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <MPG.2d81a5e8fc68e1a09897c3@news.eternal-september.org>
In article <zXPRu.263$F02.95@fx01.iad>, news@todbe.com says...
>
> On 3/5/2014 14:19, Ben Morrow wrote:
> >
> > 1. Stop feeding the troll.
>
> I'll feed whomever I wish to feed. One can't bring up off topic
> religious crap without some sort of chastisement.
>
> > 2. Stop being an offensive git. Atheist bigotry is no better than any
> > other form of religious bigotry.
>
> An opinion doesn't constitute bigotry - I tolerate all religions
> even if they are pure ignorance. It's been my experience that
> atheists are far more tolerant than a lot of theists you'll run
> into. Most theists are conservatives - by definition that would
> mean less tolerant from my observation.
Oh great, now we're discussing religion && politics! But since you brought it up, in my
opinion, liberals are far less tolerant than conservatives. They are so intolerant of any
ideas except their own that they routinely shout down speakers, throw things at speakers,
organize to prevent speakers from appearing, steal all the newspapers on an entire campus to
prevent people from reading something they might not like, etc. Conservative speakers have
had to withdraw from speaking engagements or else be forced to hire extra security to protect
them from liberals making threats of violence. None of this stuff is ever done by
conservatives who prefer all sides to be heard and are ususally willing to debate calmly.
John Black
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:06:30 +0000 (UTC)
From: tmcd@panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <lf8s86$mde$1@reader1.panix.com>
In article <20140305171056.145@kylheku.com>,
Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> wrote:
>On 2014-03-06, Tim McDaniel <tmcd@panix.com> wrote:
>> In article <pgkkua-0s92.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>,
>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>>>1. Stop feeding the troll.
>>
>> I have skipped most of the posts, but in what I have looked at,
>> I haven't noticed anything pertaining to Perl.
>>
>> Unless Perl is a religion, in which case we're practically worshipping
>
>See other thread:
> return bless($self, $class);
I bow to you in awe.
--
Tim McDaniel, tmcd@panix.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 04:59:34 +0000 (UTC)
From: Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <20140305205847.732@kylheku.com>
On 2014-03-06, $Bill <news@todbe.com> wrote:
> On 3/5/2014 17:11, Kaz Kylheku wrote:
>> On 2014-03-06, Tim McDaniel <tmcd@panix.com> wrote:
>>> In article <pgkkua-0s92.ln1@anubis.morrow.me.uk>,
>>> Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> 1. Stop feeding the troll.
>>>
>>> I have skipped most of the posts, but in what I have looked at,
>>> I haven't noticed anything pertaining to Perl.
>>>
>>> Unless Perl is a religion, in which case we're practically worshipping
>>
>> See other thread:
>>
>> return bless($self, $class);
>
> Larry is religious - could be some spillover there. ;)
That explains the cheesy ornaments.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2014 12:47:08 -0800
From: "$Bill" <news@todbe.com>
Subject: Re: use strict; use warnings;
Message-Id: <lfamsa$v8c$1@dont-email.me>
On 3/5/2014 17:49, Trifle Menot wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Mar 2014 22:45:26 +0000 (UTC), Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-03-05, Ben Morrow <ben@morrow.me.uk> wrote:
>
>>> 1. Stop feeding the troll.
>>>
>>> 2. Stop being an offensive git. Atheist bigotry is no better than any
>>> other form of religious bigotry.
>>
>> That is false. Rationally founded bigotry is superior to bigotry based on
>> faith, which makes it somewhat less ugly.
>
> "The troll" is not trolling.
>
> I made a few posts mentioning God.
^ inappropriate
> Funny how people can freak out when
> they see that word. But as I already said, I won't keep the fire going.
> So anyone who got heated up, try to cool down.
>
> Later.
Nobody's heated up - you had your say - now you get the response
to your say - just like any other post.
------------------------------
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 4165
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