[30849] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 2094 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Fri Jan 2 09:14:45 2009
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 06:14:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Fri, 2 Jan 2009 Volume: 11 Number: 2094
Today's topics:
Re: Why not Ruby? <tim@burlyhost.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <tim@burlyhost.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <kentilton@gmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <tim@burlyhost.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <rt8396@gmail.com>
Re: Why not Ruby? <marek@xivilization.net>
Re: Why not Ruby? <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:19:58 -0800
From: Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <ycc7l.23928$mE3.2100@newsfe14.iad>
Richard Riley wrote:
>
> Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com> writes:
>
>> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>>
>>> This is not a Ruby group.
>>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.
>>
>> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
>> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's best
>> to just filter the guy's posts.
>
> No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.
>
> How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to
> stimulate discussion about alternative languages for modern
> development? Most news readers feature a kill thread command if you
> are not interested in the content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant
> than killing all posts from someone who clearly has interesting things
> to say about development practises and tools.
Don't get so wound up because people in groups he cross posts this junk
to actually don't want to see it. This poster is hardly interesting or
offering anything intelligent. This poster has a history of posting
things that he is personally interested in arguing about, and posting
it in groups that are not about the languages he chooses to complain
about. There is no rhyme or reason to post in the Perl news group, for
example, if you're complaining about Ruby. This is not even close to
the first time this has happened, much like his relentless posts about
Mathematica (again, cross posted to several groups, including Perl).
This user has a specific bias and is trolling to get a rise out of
people by picking random languages and trying to cut them down,
claiming *his* opinions (based on lack of insights, ironically) are
superior. He does this often, and always cross posts to several groups
that are completely irrelevant to his argument.
The fact you actually buy into this nonsense, actually doesn't make
anyone else wrong or ignorant for not agreeing with him, or falling for
it. In fact, it means exactly the opposite. If he had something
actually interesting and/or relevant, then his rants would be more
tolerated by users of these groups. However, since he offers none of
those aspects, this is why you see people voice their grievances. Look
at this in its basic element, if you don't believe what people say --
this user didn't post the topic in the most revelant group (being the
ruby group), and each time he goes off on another misguided tangent,
several people prove him wrong, and it doesn't phase him or change
anything -- he just continues to cross post. Like I said, if you think
he's interesting, fine. However, many people don't. Perhaps as you
learn more about programming, development and specific tools and
practices, you'll come to realize this fact as well. In the meantime,
the irony is probably lost when you actually believe he is offering
something of substance, interest or that people whom know better are
somehow ignorant.
--
Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:24:44 -0800
From: Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <1hc7l.23929$mE3.719@newsfe14.iad>
Richard Riley wrote:
> Jason Rumney <jasonrumney@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Jan 1, 3:12Â pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense
>>
>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>> more carefully sometimes.
>
> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
> points. And they argue the man because he refuses to be brow beaten by
> those who do not like to be criticised or are too think skinned. I
> rarely find his posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp
> tutorial is far and away better than anything else out there for the
> programmer moving to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons
> and supportive evidence and rarely with "because I'm experienced and
> thats the way it is" - something not every one takes the time to do.
> He is clearly intelligent, thoughtful and experienced if a little
> lacking in finesse at times. The world needs more Xah lees.
>
You say he's intelligent and interesting, others see it as the opposite.
If you want to read his rants, by all means. However, there have been
many, many posts there this poster was proven wrong. That is when the
poster become more belligerent, off topic, and vulgar. That is not the
actions of an intelligent person that's staying on topic or providing
anything interesting. The only thing I find interesting, is two
anonymous posters from gmail.com rushing to his defense, especially in
light of the fact that few people share your version of this person's
talents. I'm not trying to be mean, but the guy is what people call a
usenet troll. By all means, be his fan, but don't encourage his cross
posting trolling as a means to provoke interesting, intelligent
debating (because he's not and it's absolutely not his intention).
Believe what you want, though, and I'll believe what I know.
--
Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 18:34:19 -0500
From: Kenneth Tilton <kentilton@gmail.com>
To: Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <495D52FB.6070601@gmail.com>
Richard Riley wrote:
> Jason Rumney <jasonrumney@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Jan 1, 3:12 pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense
>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>> more carefully sometimes.
>
> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
> points.
Precisely, and thus they are the trolls: few of them trim followups, and
all of them try to sound funny or clever in their attacks. Xah has
something to say about technology, like what he says or not. His
attackers just see an open mike and want to hear the sound of their own
voice, which I certainly understand.
And before anyone goes for that old argument from self-reference, the
madding crowd succeeded once in their harrassment of The Xah so
remaining silent is no option.
p,k
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:52:35 +0100
From: Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <gjjl08$l7q$1@rileyrgdev.motzarella.org>
Raymond Wiker <raw@RawMBP.local> writes:
> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Tamas K Papp <tkpapp@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:28:08 +0100, Richard Riley wrote:
>>>
>>>> posts controversial but always interesting. His ELisp tutorial is far
>>>> and away better than anything else out there for the programmer moving
>>>> to Elisp IMO. He backs up his points with reasons and supportive
>>>
>>> Programmers don't "move" to Elisp. Emacs Lisp is used out of necessity
>>> when you want to program Emacs. No one in his/her right mind would use
>>> it in any other context, as far better alternatives exist (eg CL for
>>> those who like Lisp).
>>>
>>> Tamas
>>
>> "move to Elisp" was clearly meant as "moving towards it in order to use
>> it". In this case to modify emacs. And to suggest that jobs of work are
>> not done in Emacs is ridiculous. I am at a loss to really understand
>> what you mean here in the context.
>
> OK, how about this: Xah's elisp code stinks to high
> heaven. His code should not be studied by anybody who actually wants
> to actually learn elisp (or anything else).
I found his tutorial easy to use and very convenient for finding out how
to do things quickly and easily. I grant you that possibly thats not the
way to be a true Elisp god, but for getting things done in a timely and
efficient manner I thought it was good.
Clearly Xah Lee stirs up some strong emotions here. I can only go on
what I have read from him and I find him interesting and always willing
to back up his own research and views.
--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:57:06 +0100
From: Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <gjjl8l$l7q$2@rileyrgdev.motzarella.org>
Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com> writes:
> Richard Riley wrote:
>
>>
>> Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com> writes:
>>
>>> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is not a Ruby group.
>>>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.
>>>
>>> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
>>> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's best
>>> to just filter the guy's posts.
>>
>> No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.
>>
>> How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to
>> stimulate discussion about alternative languages for modern
>> development? Most news readers feature a kill thread command if you
>> are not interested in the content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant
>> than killing all posts from someone who clearly has interesting things
>> to say about development practises and tools.
>
> Don't get so wound up because people in groups he cross posts this
> junk
Wound up? I am not wound up in any shape or form. I am suggesting the
opposite. It seems you are the one a little wound up. So wound up in
fact you are taking it on yourself to tell people who they should or
should not read.
> to actually don't want to see it. This poster is hardly interesting or
> offering anything intelligent. This poster has a history of posting
> things that he is personally interested in arguing about, and posting
> it in groups that are not about the languages he chooses to complain
> about. There is no rhyme or reason to post in the Perl news group,
> for
You dont seem to think that a comparison article is relevant in the
groups dedicated to the languages he compares too? OK. I do. You are, of
course, welcome to your opinion and I certainly would not tell you who
to read or not read. I would suggest that not everyone woul agree with
you and that telling people who to killfile is not at all constructive.
> example, if you're complaining about Ruby. This is not even close to
> the first time this has happened, much like his relentless posts about
> Mathematica (again, cross posted to several groups, including Perl).
> This user has a specific bias and is trolling to get a rise out of
> people by picking random languages and trying to cut them down,
> claiming *his* opinions (based on lack of insights, ironically) are
> superior. He does this often, and always cross posts to several groups
> that are completely irrelevant to his argument.
You clearly have a personal issue with Xah Lee. Possibly it is better
you killfile him or your spring will over wind :-;
regards,
r.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 01:00:19 +0100
From: Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <gjjlem$l7q$3@rileyrgdev.motzarella.org>
Kenneth Tilton <kentilton@gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Riley wrote:
>> Jason Rumney <jasonrumney@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Jan 1, 3:12 pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense
>>> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
>>> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
>>> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
>>> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
>>> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
>>> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
>>> more carefully sometimes.
>>
>> I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
>> points.
>
> Precisely, and thus they are the trolls: few of them trim followups,
> and all of them try to sound funny or clever in their attacks. Xah has
> something to say about technology, like what he says or not. His
> attackers just see an open mike and want to hear the sound of their
> own voice, which I certainly understand.
>
> And before anyone goes for that old argument from self-reference, the
> madding crowd succeeded once in their harrassment of The Xah so
> remaining silent is no option.
>
> p,k
It's good to see I am not alone in my views on some of the more
aggressive posters who seem to take delight in attacking Xah Lee. I was
wondering if I had backed myself into a corner with no chance of escape
for a moment. I found the comments on his elisp tutorial and reference
particularly offensive and destructive considering I know it to be of at
least some use as I referred to it quite a bit when trying some basic
customisations.
--
important and urgent problems of the technology of today are no longer the satisfactions of the primary needs or of archetypal wishes, but the reparation of the evils and damages by the technology of yesterday. ~Dennis Gabor, Innovations: Scientific, Technological and Social, 1970
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:02:44 -0800
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <6cmql4hmfbsrtr1mgsub2l2p6o0lv7n03l@4ax.com>
Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> wrote:
>discussion about alternative languages for modern development? Most news
>readers feature a kill thread command if you are not interested in the
>content. Certainly less extreme or ignorant than killing all posts from
>someone
Thank you for reminding me
*PLONK*
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:05:11 -0800
From: Jürgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <dfmql4t7b8tsqbgsvaknb3pdb9790bksut@4ax.com>
Kenneth Tilton <kentilton@gmail.com> wrote:
>Xah has
>something to say about technology, like what he says or not.
Unfortunately it's unrelated to the topics the NGs he is spamming.
*PLONK*
jue
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:18:54 -0800
From: Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <P3d7l.53183$Uk3.1006@newsfe10.iad>
Richard Riley wrote:
> Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Tim Greer <tim@burlyhost.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Giampaolo Rodola' wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This is not a Ruby group.
>>>>> I recommend you to go waste your time there.
>>>>
>>>> That poster has a frequent habit of cross posting to multiple,
>>>> irrelevant news groups. There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's
>>>> best to just filter the guy's posts.
>>>
>>> No rhyme nor reason? It's quite clear, to me, why.
>>>
>>> How is a comparison article not relevant when he is trying to
>>> stimulate discussion about alternative languages for modern
>>> development? Most news readers feature a kill thread command if you
>>> are not interested in the content. Certainly less extreme or
>>> ignorant than killing all posts from someone who clearly has
>>> interesting things to say about development practises and tools.
>>
>> Don't get so wound up because people in groups he cross posts this
>> junk
>
>
> Wound up?
Yes, I'd say that accusing people of bring ignorant and attacking them
for not sharing your view on the irrelevant cross posting and trolling
of the Xah poster, is indeed an indication that you appear to be wound
up. Perhaps you've not seen the posts and threads he's made that I've
seen? Perhaps I've not seen the one's you have? Either way, the one's
I have, have all been either self serving garbage about his own
personal feelings that he attempts to covey as fact with his
overbearing arrogance, or it's simply to attack others for not sharing
his view. I find that ironic. He attacks others, acting belligerent,
and you attack those that simply say he's better ignored.
> I am not wound up in any shape or form.
Then convey that in your attitude when replying to others you don't know
anything about, and try and be civil and not accuse people you don't
know.
> I am suggesting the
> opposite.
Suggesting it by doing exactly what you're saying people should not do?
> It seems you are the one a little wound up.
Nope, I responded to your attempts to provoke an issue, when you accused
myself and others of being "ignorant" for not sharing your view
regarding the Xah poster.
> So wound up in
> fact you are taking it on yourself to tell people who they should or
> should not read.
A suggestion is not an instruction or demand. You listed reasons why
you believed those that didn't agree with you were wrong and ignorant,
and I listed reasons in response to your claim to dispute it.
>> to actually don't want to see it. This poster is hardly interesting
>> or
>> offering anything intelligent. This poster has a history of posting
>> things that he is personally interested in arguing about, and posting
>> it in groups that are not about the languages he chooses to complain
>> about. There is no rhyme or reason to post in the Perl news group,
>> for
>
> You dont seem to think that a comparison article is relevant in the
> groups dedicated to the languages he compares too?
No. Not when it's just his own feelings about the languages. A lot of
people have their personal feelings about various languages, imagine
all of the pollution we'd see if everyone was as arrogant as this guy,
all posting their views as if they are the authority on the matter?
Again, going by that deduction, what do you suppose explains his
failure to consider posting this in the ruby group itself, since that
is the primary (and actually, only) relevant group (dismissing his
personal views)?
> OK. I do.
If you do, that's fine. However, many people in the Perl group, which
I'm seeing this thread, have voiced their issues with this poster's
relentless postings of this nature. I did as well, in this new thread.
> You are,
> of course, welcome to your opinion and I certainly would not tell you
> who to read or not read.
I can appreciate that, and I didn't tell you to do anything though, now
did I?
> I would suggest that not everyone woul agree
> with you and that telling people who to killfile is not at all
> constructive.
Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with me. The poster that
replied displayed annoyance at seeing the off topic, self serving and
trollish post that this Xah poster is known for (at least in this
group), and in response to *that*, I had suggested they don't take him
seriously, and this is "what he does" (in my experience). There's no
reason to read more into it and start claiming people are ignorant for
not agreeing with you. And, I think it's perfectly constructive to
advise someone that this isn't abnormal, and for future reference, to
consider such an option if they are too annoyed by it.
>> example, if you're complaining about Ruby. This is not even close to
>> the first time this has happened, much like his relentless posts
>> about Mathematica (again, cross posted to several groups, including
>> Perl). This user has a specific bias and is trolling to get a rise
>> out of people by picking random languages and trying to cut them
>> down, claiming *his* opinions (based on lack of insights, ironically)
>> are
>> superior. He does this often, and always cross posts to several
>> groups that are completely irrelevant to his argument.
>
> You clearly have a personal issue with Xah Lee.
Not at all. It's not personal. It's a simple observation and opinion
based on my experience seeing his cross posting trolling over the last
few weeks. I didn't accuse you of having a personal issue with me for
not agreeing with my opinion and methods, so perhaps you can consider
the gesture of not making such accusations. They aren't true or
relevant. Yeah, I verbalized (textualized) my displeasure with his
tactics, but that's the end of the matter, really.
> Possibly it is better
> you killfile him or your spring will over wind :-;
Uh huh.
--
Tim Greer, CEO/Founder/CTO, BurlyHost.com, Inc.
Shared Hosting, Reseller Hosting, Dedicated & Semi-Dedicated servers
and Custom Hosting. 24/7 support, 30 day guarantee, secure servers.
Industry's most experienced staff! -- Web Hosting With Muscle!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:24:43 -0800 (PST)
From: r <rt8396@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <00354316-4d95-4eca-8ff3-45d804ddf97a@s37g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>
On Jan 1, 5:34=A0pm, Kenneth Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Richard Riley wrote:
> > Jason Rumney <jasonrum...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> On Jan 1, 3:12 pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The man lives in a world driven by common sense
> >> "Common" sense suggests that his views are shared among the general
> >> populace. I don't see much evidence of that in the sometimes never-
> >> ending threads that frequently follow his postings. But it is good to
> >> start debates about making changes to the status quo, often the
> >> debates will result in worthwhile changes, even if those changes are
> >> not what he proposed. I just wish he would choose his venue a little
> >> more carefully sometimes.
>
> > I find that with Xah's posts people argue the man and not his
> > points.
>
> Precisely, and thus they are the trolls: few of them trim followups, and
> all of them try to sound funny or clever in their attacks. Xah has
> something to say about technology, like what he says or not. His
> attackers just see an open mike and want to hear the sound of their own
> voice, which I certainly understand.
>
> And before anyone goes for that old argument from self-reference, the
> madding crowd succeeded once in their harrassment of The Xah so
> remaining silent is no option.
>
> p,k
Good Point,
Starting a new thread is not off topic no matter what subject. I have
never witnessed a time where Xah jumped in the middle of a thread and
started a ruckus(i could be wrong), But i do see many interrupting
Xah's threads or any thread for that matter that they feel is
irrelevant to them. The topic of a thread is it's title. Here, the
title is "Why Not Ruby". I am the only person yet to offer argument
for or against Ruby here.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:13:34 +0000 (UTC)
From: Marek Kubica <marek@xivilization.net>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <gjjt8e$ua8$2@hoshi.visyn.net>
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:13:19 -0800, Fuzzyman wrote:
> Care to save me the effort of looking it up and tell me what Data.Map
> does that Python's dict doesn't?
>
> I guess if it is functional then every mutation must copy and return a
> new data structure? (Which will be much more efficient in Haskell than
> in Python - Haskell can share most of the underlying data whereas Python
> would have to create a new dict every time. At least it only stores
> references.)
Who says that it must create a whole new one? I could imagine that with a
bit weakref code and some thought an immutable dictionary that shares
data would be possible in Python too.
regards,
Marek
------------------------------
Date: 01 Jan 2009 19:51:53 -0800
From: Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@NOSPAM.invalid>
Subject: Re: Why not Ruby?
Message-Id: <7xabaatleu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Marek Kubica <marek@xivilization.net> writes:
> > I guess if it is functional then every mutation must copy and return a
> > new data structure?
Yes.
> > (Which will be much more efficient in Haskell than
> > in Python - Haskell can share most of the underlying data whereas Python
> > would have to create a new dict every time. At least it only stores
> > references.)
The structure sharing is essential, but you can do it in Python, just
not using Python dicts as far as I can tell.
> Who says that it must create a whole new one? I could imagine that with a
> bit weakref code and some thought an immutable dictionary that shares
> data would be possible in Python too.
I don't see a way to do that. Suppose d and e are dicts that are supposed
to share structure except d['name']='bob' and e['name']='joe'. How do
weakrefs help?
Functional dictionaries are usually implemented using red-black trees
or AVL trees or similar data structures, rather than hash tables.
------------------------------
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 2094
***************************************
