[29339] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 583 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Tue Jun 26 14:29:44 2007
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:29:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Tue, 26 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 583
Today's topics:
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <moranar@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <saint@spammer.impiccati.it>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <saint@spammer.impiccati.it>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <martin@see.sig.for.address>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <mkb@incubus.de>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <notbob@nothome.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <borud-news@borud.no>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <dak@gnu.org>
Re: time manipulation getting invalid times QoS@domain.invalid
Re: time manipulation getting invalid times <noreply@gunnar.cc>
Re: uninitialized value <joe@inwap.com>
Re: User Management and Authentication with Perl <ilias@lazaridis.com>
Re: User Management and Authentication with Perl <ts@dionic.net>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 23:01:30 -0700
From: Adriano Varoli Piazza <moranar@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182837690.585067.165060@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
Twisted wrote:
> With the latest stuff like Ubuntu, you're pretty much right ... until
> something goes wrong. Windows has .
[...]
> Linux has ... the
> command line, or worse a GRUB or fsck prompt at startup. No access to
> accessible, easy to browse help right when you need it most.
I suppose you never used Ubuntu's disc for anything but installing or
reformatting either, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that
can be done with it. You can boot with it, have a working net
connection (or create it) and solve many problems in the comfort of
the full GUI, and with all the help available from the web.
As for the available help on Windows, I didn't know Windows Safe mode
let you connect to the Intertubes, or that its help was of any help in
those situations.
Really, if you have no idea, it's ok to refrain from posting.
--
Saludos
Adriano
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:22:44 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182838964.721578.196400@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 26, 2:01 am, Adriano Varoli Piazza <mora...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Twisted wrote:
> > With the latest stuff like Ubuntu, you're pretty much right ... until
> > something goes wrong. Windows has .
> [...]
> > Linux has ... the
> > command line, or worse a GRUB or fsck prompt at startup. No access to
> > accessible, easy to browse help right when you need it most.
>
> I suppose you never used Ubuntu's disc for anything but installing or
> reformatting either, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that
> can be done with it. You can boot with it, have a working net
> connection (or create it) and solve many problems in the comfort of
> the full GUI, and with all the help available from the web.
Ah, if you have a live CD this might indeed be possible. If you can
get it to mount your usual hdd partitions to go sniffing around the
configuration files that might be gummed up, and if doing this isn't
insanely complicated anyway.
A Windows restore CD or recovery partition doesn't do anything of the
sort, although a genuine install CD has a repair function, which can
among other things fix problems with the MBR and reinstall key Windoze
components on the hdd. If you can boot to safe mode you can fix most
things with System Restore, which simply lets you roll back the
configuration to before that ill-advised install, uninstall, driver
update, or whatever it was that hosed things. I've had to resort to it
exactly twice; once when firewall software b0rked the system on
install and put it in infinite-reboot mode (safe mode halted the loop)
and once when nVidia released some driver update that hosed the 3D
accelerator and screwed up the available graphics modes. System
Restore works by quietly backing up key files (DLLs, config files, and
suchlike) and registry trees when an installer is run and under some
other circumstances, including a manual instruction to create a save
point, which you can use before you try anything dodgy so you can roll
back to right before the attempt if it goes wrong. Ordinary document
files and the like aren't backed up or anything by this, however. If
they get hosed, they get hosed, although System Restore won't damage
them any more than it will back them up.
I've managed to fix driver and networking problems a few times, and
sometimes on someone else's computer, with and without system restore.
Most of the times if I've seen any flavor of unix misbehaving, it's
been find a bigger geek or resort to beads and rattles; it's been far
from obvious what the problem was from the error messages, let alone
what the fix was, and often the problem precluded access to any useful
tools or documentation simultaneously. A live CD might make that less
of an issue, though it would still be a pain if you had to keep using
it as a workaround for days while waiting for a mailing list or usenet
response explaining what the f*#! "bad zixflob in fuzzwangle.rc,
aborting" meant and how to fix it, especially as a system-wide search
didn't turn up any files named "fuzzwangle.rc" -- or whatever the
problem was. :)
[Insulting insinuation snipped]
Oh, sod off.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:28:22 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <877iprhos9.fsf@kobe.laptop>
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 21:51:34 -0000, Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> wrote:
>> C-h i, C-x b RET is non-trivial?!?
[...]
> I'm sorry. I don't speak Chinese.
>
> I trust I've made my point. Not only does it insist you learn a whole
> other language (though I'm guessing it's not actually Chinese --
> Greek, maybe), even when you know that's a bunch of keystrokes and
> even what they are...
>
> HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL IS IT SUPPOSED TO OCCUR TO SOMEONE TO ENTER
> THEM, GIVEN THAT THEY HAVE TO DO SO TO REACH THE HELP THAT WOULD TELL
> THEM THOSE ARE THE KEYS TO REACH THE HELP?!
No it's not Greek. I can assure you it isn't, because I *am* Greek.
Now, regarding your shouting about the keys, have you tried using a
recent GNU Emacs installation? The first thing that pops up when a new
user runs Emacs looks like this:
,-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Welcome to GNU Emacs, a part of the GNU operating system.
|
| Type C-l to begin editing.
|
| Get help C-h (Hold down CTRL and press h)
| Emacs manual C-h r
| Emacs tutorial C-h t Undo changes C-x u
| Buy manuals C-h C-m Exit Emacs C-x C-c
| Browse manuals C-h i
| Activate menubar F10 or ESC ` or M-`
| (`C-' means use the CTRL key. `M-' means use the Meta (or Alt) key.
| If you have no Meta key, you may instead type ESC followed by the character.)
|
| GNU Emacs 22.1.50.2 (i386-unknown-freebsd7.0, X toolkit)
| of 2007-05-29 on kobe
| Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
|
| GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; type C-h C-w for full details.
| Emacs is Free Software--Free as in Freedom--so you can redistribute copies
| of Emacs and modify it; type C-h C-c to see the conditions.
| Type C-h C-d for information on getting the latest version.
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Basic reading skills are necessary to parse this 'splash' screen, but it
shouldn't be too hard to read a few lines of text which guide you about
the proper key sequence to reach the tutorial, right?
> Of course, Notepad is so easy to use it doesn't even need help,
> despite which it's readily available. In case you forgot the bog-
> standard (and therefore it IS self-evident) "F1" there's even a "Help"
> menu in plain view as soon as you open a Notepad.
There's also a "Help" menu in plain sight when you fire up Emacs with an
X11 interface. I don't see why Notepad is special in any way here.
> This is the lowly Notepad, which I'll freely admit is the rusty
> bicycle of text editors, and it's much easier to use (including the
> help) than the supposed Mercedes-Benz of editors.
Isn't this always the case? The 'interface' of a tiny bicycle is
something which even very young kids can master pretty fast. On the
other hand, I'm relatively sure there's at least one valid reason we
don't let pre-school aged children drive around Mercedes-Benz cars,
isn't there?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 21:32:44 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <873b0fhokz.fsf@kobe.laptop>
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 23:08:02 -0000, nebulous99@gmail.com wrote:
>> lpr /usr/local/share/emacs/21.3/etc/refcard.ps
>> or your install-dir........^ ^
>> or your version.............................^
>
> So now we're expected to go on a filesystem fishing expedition instead
> of just hit F1? One small step (backwards) for a man; one giant leap
> (backwards) for mankind. :P
>
>> But then again buying the GNU-book from 'O Reilly would have solved it
>> in the utmost nicest possible of ways anyway.
>
> So much for the "free" in "free software". If you can't actually use
> it without paying money, whether for the software or for some book, it
> isn't really free, is it?
Please do not confuse the term 'free' in 'free software' with 'gratis'.
'Gratis', i.e. 'lacking a monetary price tag' is something *very*
different from the meaning of 'free' in 'free software'.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:40:55 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182843655.378325.275610@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 2:32 pm, Giorgos Keramidas <keram...@ceid.upatras.gr>
wrote:
> > So much for the "free" in "free software". If you can't actually use
> > it without paying money, whether for the software or for some book, it
> > isn't really free, is it?
>
> Please do not confuse the term 'free' in 'free software' with 'gratis'.
>
> 'Gratis', i.e. 'lacking a monetary price tag' is something *very*
> different from the meaning of 'free' in 'free software'.
Having to pay for the documentation, presumably because it's
copyrighted, doesn't strike me as much more "free as in speech" than
it is "free as in beer". Also being dependent on a particular
publisher for access to required documentation violates "free as in no
vendor lock-in", to boot. So anyone saying some "free" software is
unusable without such-and-such an O'Reilly book can go peddle the
software and the book somewhere where spammers are welcome. Being
locked in to O'Reilly being just as bad as being locked in to
Microsoft or Adobe.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:44:32 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182843872.488493.153700@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 2:28 pm, Giorgos Keramidas <keram...@ceid.upatras.gr>
wrote:
> > This is the lowly Notepad, which I'll freely admit is the rusty
> > bicycle of text editors, and it's much easier to use (including the
> > help) than the supposed Mercedes-Benz of editors.
>
> Isn't this always the case? The 'interface' of a tiny bicycle is
> something which even very young kids can master pretty fast. On the
> other hand, I'm relatively sure there's at least one valid reason we
> don't let pre-school aged children drive around Mercedes-Benz cars,
> isn't there?
And the myth of the bicycle being easy to learn persists. Did you know
that kids learn better than adults do? Why do kids pick up at least
one language without any conscious effort, while adults trying to
learn one more often struggle in night school?
I know people who find all kinds of vehicles easy to learn but never
mastered a bicycle (despite trying). People, plural, as in more than
one of them.
Anyway, I know which comes with a fatter manual -- the Benz...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 11:42:36 +0300
From: Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87lke7w1hf.fsf@kobe.laptop>
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:40:55 -0000, Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Jun 25, 2:32 pm, Giorgos Keramidas <keram...@ceid.upatras.gr>
>wrote:
>>> So much for the "free" in "free software". If you can't actually use
>>> it without paying money, whether for the software or for some book,
>>> it isn't really free, is it?
>>
>> Please do not confuse the term 'free' in 'free software' with 'gratis'.
>>
>> 'Gratis', i.e. 'lacking a monetary price tag' is something *very*
>> different from the meaning of 'free' in 'free software'.
>
> Having to pay for the documentation, presumably because it's
> copyrighted, doesn't strike me as much more "free as in speech" than
> it is "free as in beer".
You don't have to "pay for the documentation because it is copyrighted".
You can _download_ the Emacs manual in any format you are more
comfortable with.
See for example:
http://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
This page lists downloadable documentation in nicely formatted HTML or
PDF formats, which is available without any sort of monetary charge.
> Also being dependent on a particular publisher for access to required
> documentation violates "free as in no vendor lock-in", to boot. So
> anyone saying some "free" software is unusable without such-and-such
> an O'Reilly book can go peddle the software and the book somewhere
> where spammers are welcome. Being locked in to O'Reilly being just as
> bad as being locked in to Microsoft or Adobe.
Since you are not obliged to _pay_ for the O'Reilly version, this entire
paragraph is both meaningless and moot. Feel free to grab an online
copy of the manual, or install the documentation of Emacs using your
favorite distribution's packaging tools. There is absolutely no
"lock-in" anywhere near Emacs.
- Giorgos
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:06:13 +0200
From: Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@spammer.impiccati.it>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87r6nzc9nu.fsf@mail.eng.it>
>>>>> "n" == nebulous99 <nebulous99@gmail.com> writes:
n> On Jun 22, 6:32 pm, Cor Gest <c...@clsnet.nl> wrote:
>> > HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL IS IT SUPPOSED TO OCCUR TO SOMEONE TO
>> ENTER > THEM, GIVEN THAT THEY HAVE TO DO SO TO REACH THE HELP THAT
>> WOULD TELL > THEM THOSE ARE THE KEYS TO REACH THE HELP?!
>>
>> What's your problem ?
>>
>> Ofcourse a mere program-consumer would not look what was being
>> installed on his/her system in the first place ... So after some
>> trivial perusing what was installed and where : WOW Look, MA !
>> .... it's all there!
>>
>> lpr /usr/local/share/emacs/21.3/etc/refcard.ps or your
>> install-dir........^ ^ or your
>> version.............................^
n> So now we're expected to go on a filesystem fishing expedition
n> instead of just hit F1? One small step (backwards) for a man; one
n> giant leap (backwards) for mankind. :P
Waring, possible ID TEN T detected!
There's a program called find, not this intuitive but worth learning
It could solve the problem from the root with something like
find / -name refcard.ps -exec lpr {} \; 2> /dev/null
This line requires some brain and some learning, true, but the
documents should be on your HD, unless you avoided installing the man
to save space.
About the brain, you should have received like me a standard issue one
at least (or maybe a better one).
>> But then again buying the GNU-book from 'O Reilly would have solved
>> it in the utmost nicest possible of ways anyway.
n> So much for the "free" in "free software". If you can't actually
n> use it without paying money, whether for the software or for some
n> book, it isn't really free, is it?
GNU books ARE free, and come in both printed and electronic form.
No excuses.
BTW, buing a GNU book is a good way to finance FSF.
And from your too-lazy (ID TEN T like) point of view even freedom
itself is not free, since its defence has a cost.
--
/\ ___
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____
//--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamico
\/ e coltivatore diretto di Software
A Cesare avrei detto di scrivermi a fnvag@rat.vg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:17:20 +0200
From: Gian Uberto Lauri <saint@spammer.impiccati.it>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <87myync95b.fsf@mail.eng.it>
>>>>> Long count = 12.19.14.7.15; tzolkin = 1 Men; haab = 3 Tzec.
>>>>> I get words from the Allmighty Great Gnus that
>>>>> "T" == Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> writes:
T> And the myth of the bicycle being easy to learn persists. Did you
T> know that kids learn better than adults do? Why do kids pick up at
T> least one language without any conscious effort, while adults
T> trying to learn one more often struggle in night school?
Mostly because they block themselves with strange fears and due bad
teaching, the "fear" of a test, the lack of fun, the "constriction",
all block adults learning new language.
Pick an over 30, overloaded with (often) frustrating work, and give
her an university level course in languages with grammars and/or
alphabets completly different from those she uses (yesss, I am
thinking of a woman, my wife...) like Arab (alphabet and some grammar)
and Turkish (its grammar sound lispish to my ears), and she'll go
ahead without "fatigue" and with flying colours.
Children pick up other language without any conscious effort because
either they learn it by using with parents, relatives and friends or
they are involved in a game-like style of learning.
Why else hacker prize fun this much ? :) :)
T> I know people who find all kinds of vehicles easy to learn but
T> never mastered a bicycle (despite trying). People, plural, as in
T> more than one of them.
Again, fear, or maybe, some malfunction in the balancing organs. But
fear mainly. You do not see what keeps a bike upright and running, you
have to trust that you can.
You can walk on a 4 inch wide stripe on a floor without problems, but
when it is a 4 inch wide bar some feet over the floor...
--
/\ ___
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_____
//--\| | \| | Integralista GNUslamico
\/ e coltivatore diretto di Software
A Cesare avrei detto di scrivermi a fnvag@rat.vg
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 12:43:40 +0100
From: Martin Gregorie <martin@see.sig.for.address>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <foa7l4-2cp.ln1@zoogz.gregorie.org>
Twisted wrote:
>
> First, I didn't claim the ideal WP was necessarily perfectly WYSIWYG.
>
Maybe I should have clarified my viewpoint. When it comes to programs
that operate on the content of textual documents a word processor is
WYSIWYG by definition. Anything else is a text editor. You may have a
different view but that's mine.
> Your quiet change from discussing word processing to discussing
> WYSIWYG is interesting.
>
See above. We were actually discussing text editors whose formatting
capabilities (unless they are syntax-sensitive) are generally limited to
line wrapping and auto-indentation. You introduced more complex document
reformatting - something that I regard as a capability of word
processors rather than text editors.
> Programming in role-playing game? And I meant my roguelike-filesystem-
> interface suggestion at least partly in jest...
>
RPG is "Report Generating Program" in the context of programming
languages. The RPG language is horrid: its a bastardized, fixed column
assembler derivative that's been shoehorned into a typical report
generator's processing loop. Even PL/1 and COBOL shine as paragons of
programming language design by comparison.
> If it's so great, why hasn't it, and why hasn't OS/400 managed to
> escape from persistent obscurity?
>
A fair question. I don't know, but it probably has a lot to do with AIX
and the UNIX command shell with its great power but lack of consistency
in naming, etc.
> In other words, the implementation was a dog. That doesn't refute the
> basic concept's validity.
>
True, but doing better would be really hard because of all the
information and context that would need to be associated with every
mouse click in case it was needed to record a macro. At best it might
make macro recording tedious. At worst it could make the whole GUI
unresponsive.
--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:16:46 +0200
From: Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5eclebF37uh5mU1@mid.dfncis.de>
Twisted wrote:
[...]
Hey dude,
get back to selling used cars and leave us computer geeks alone, will ya?
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 16:25:13 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <867ipqsshi.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> writes:
> Twisted wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Hey dude,
>
> get back to selling used cars and leave us computer geeks alone,
> will ya?
Well, how will his customers react to the stories about avoiding
Mercedes cars because of people getting hit in the face by the crank
start?
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:26:25 -0500
From: notbob <notbob@nothome.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <haWdnTW5N92MvxzbnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@comcast.com>
On 2007-06-25, Giorgos Keramidas <keramida@ceid.upatras.gr> wrote:
> X11 interface. I don't see why Notepad is special in any way here.
It's not. I discovered, quite by accident, wordpad is the superior
text editor in windows. It even properly formats those cryptic brag
pages crackers put in cracked software.
nb
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:37:24 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3abumvl23.fsf@borud.not>
[Robert Uhl <eadmund42@NOSPAMgmail.com>]
|
| Once again I am forced to wonder if you have _ever_ actually used
| emacs. find-file has tab completion: hit tab without anything typed, and
| it displays _everything_ in the directory; type a few characters to
| narrow it down; hit tab to complete the filename and be done with
| it.
...and of course, in addition you have access to history so you can
easily find previous parameters and edit them. this makes it very
efficient when you need to fiddle about in deep directory trees in a
way no GUI can yet offer.
...and then there's bookmarking, which is very good for keeping a set
of files (and locations) handy for quick access.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:40:21 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m34pkuvkx6.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
|
| Really? None of this happens if you just do the straightforward file-
| open command, which should obviously at least provide a navigable
| directory tree, but definitely does not.
well, if you insist on using Emacs in the most clumsy way possible,
then of course, not it won't be easy. it is very obvious to any Emacs
user that you haven't bothered learning Emacs at all. go away, troll.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 16:52:54 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3vedau5rt.fsf@borud.not>
[Robert Uhl <eadmund42@NOSPAMgmail.com>]
|
| Agreed. Stallman got sidetracked by Scheme, which IMHO was a
| dead-end.
too many people buying SICP and believing what they heard about it
being an important book. I too spent some time exploring Scheme, or
should I say, wasted some time, years ago, and nothing came of it
other than a profound irritation. these people seemed to be
completely disconnected from reality.
Scheme, and thus Guile, might have been a viable path if these people
had only been practical instead of stubbornly insisting on being odd.
| A Common Lisp emacs would be pretty sweet. There's a Climacs project,
| but they're just focused on providing an editor, not on providing a
| full-fledged emacs.
if nothing else, a proper Emacs in Common Lisp might give me a reason
to learn Lisp properly.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:02:02 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3k5tqu5cl.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
| On Jun 23, 2:04 am, Robert Uhl <eadmun...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
| > Of course, emacs doesn't take years of mastery. It takes 30, 40
| > minutes.
|
| I gave it twice that, and it failed to grow on me in that amount of
| time.
then it just wasn't meant to be. stick to Notepad.
| If I haven't, it must be the case that finding this tutorial (or even
| discovering that it exists) was nontrivial, or it wasn't built into
| emacs, one or the other.
when Emacs on my machine starts it says the following:
Welcome to GNU Emacs, one component of a Linux-based GNU system.
Get help C-h (Hold down CTRL and press h)
Undo changes C-x u Exit Emacs C-x C-c
Get a tutorial C-h t Use Info to read docs C-h i
Ordering manuals C-h RET
Activate menubar F10 or ESC ` or M-`
(`C-' means use the CTRL key. `M-' means use the Meta (or Alt) key.
If you have no Meta key, you may instead type ESC followed by the
character.)
if you haven't found the tutorial, you haven't really tried very hard.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: 26 Jun 2007 17:12:14 +0200
From: Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <m3ejjyu4vl.fsf@borud.not>
[Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
|
| and you said that depended on the definition of "expert". Apparently
| you believe there is a type of "expert" for whom beginner-friendly
| software is intrinsically less usable than beginner-hostile
| software.
no, I was alluding to you thinking that posession of knowledge which
is considered rudimentary basics for Emacs somehow elevates the person
in question to an "expert". just because you have not, by your own
admission, been able to even locate the built-in tutorial, I don't
think your definition of "expert" is very relevant.
-Bjørn
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 17:16:22 +0200
From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <86tzsurbjt.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz>
Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no> writes:
> [Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>]
> |
> | and you said that depended on the definition of "expert". Apparently
> | you believe there is a type of "expert" for whom beginner-friendly
> | software is intrinsically less usable than beginner-hostile
> | software.
>
> no, I was alluding to you thinking that posession of knowledge which
> is considered rudimentary basics for Emacs somehow elevates the person
> in question to an "expert". just because you have not, by your own
> admission, been able to even locate the built-in tutorial, I don't
> think your definition of "expert" is very relevant.
Since he did not ever download a copy of Emacs in the last 10 years
(and won't according to his own statements download anything or look
at any web page because his computer incompetency makes him incapable
of avoiding or detecting viruses) one can hardly blame him for not
finding the tutorial in software he did not download.
--
David Kastrup
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 15:15:03 GMT
From: QoS@domain.invalid
Subject: Re: time manipulation getting invalid times
Message-Id: <X3agi.12464$XH5.7227@trndny02>
jbl <jbl02NO@SPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message-id: <4f72831ktj71d9so522o8cdn8pi8sjf691@4ax.com>
>
>
>
>
> I have a script that deals with time in hours, minures, seconds and
> milliconds. Initially I was using the round function from Math::Round
>
> It was working fine then I noticed I was getting an error occasionaly.
>
> Turned out it was when the seconds were 59 and the milliseconds were
> above 500, I was rounding the minutes from 59 to 60 yeilding invalid
> times like 13 minutes and 60 seconds instead of 14 minutes and 00
> seconds.
>
> Example:
> HH:MM:SS,miliseconds
>
> $lines[0] = 00:13:59,934
>
> my $roundedSeconds = sprintf("%02d",(round(substr($lines[0],-6))));
>
> Using the round function from Math::Round
>
> I get $roundedSeconds = 13:60 which is 13 minutes and 60 seconds.
> Obviously an invalid time.
>
>
> I believe that a workaround is to just use the int function and
> truncate the milliseconds
>
> $lines[0] = 00:13:59,934
>
> my $roundedSeconds = sprintf("%02d",(int(substr($lines[0],-6))));
>
> Using the int function I get $roundedSeconds = 13:59 which is 13
> minutes and 59 seconds.
>
> The files have thousands of times in them and I am trying to avoid
> building in another error that will take hours to check.
>
> Does anybody see any errors with me using this method (int)
>
> thanks
>
> jbl
Yeah your watch runs slow.
int just removes whats to the right of the decimal.
If your script 'deals' with milliseconds then why round or disregard them?
Guess if the script really doesnt need them, why bother checking ms anyway.
Here is a link ive found useful when doing some time related math:
http://datetime.perl.org/
yw
jdm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 18:50:53 +0200
From: Gunnar Hjalmarsson <noreply@gunnar.cc>
Subject: Re: time manipulation getting invalid times
Message-Id: <5ecukvF37kcogU1@mid.individual.net>
jbl wrote:
> I have a script that deals with time in hours, minures, seconds and
> milliconds. Initially I was using the round function from Math::Round
sprintf() should have been sufficient.
> It was working fine then I noticed I was getting an error occasionaly.
>
> Turned out it was when the seconds were 59 and the milliseconds were
> above 500, I was rounding the minutes from 59 to 60 yeilding invalid
> times like 13 minutes and 60 seconds instead of 14 minutes and 00
> seconds.
>
> Example:
> HH:MM:SS,miliseconds
>
> $lines[0] = 00:13:59,934
>
> my $roundedSeconds = sprintf("%02d",(round(substr($lines[0],-6))));
>
> Using the round function from Math::Round
>
> I get $roundedSeconds = 13:60 which is 13 minutes and 60 seconds.
> Obviously an invalid time.
>
> I believe that a workaround is to just use the int function and
> truncate the milliseconds
>
> $lines[0] = 00:13:59,934
>
> my $roundedSeconds = sprintf("%02d",(int(substr($lines[0],-6))));
>
> Using the int function I get $roundedSeconds = 13:59 which is 13
> minutes and 59 seconds.
>
> The files have thousands of times in them and I am trying to avoid
> building in another error that will take hours to check.
>
> Does anybody see any errors with me using this method (int)
How about incorrectly rounded time?
This is one approach:
my $t = '00:13:59,934';
print t_round( $t ), "\n";
sub t_round {
my ($h, $m, $s) = split /:/, shift;
$s =~ tr/,/./;
my $sec = 60*60*$h + 60*$m + sprintf '%.0f', $s;
$s = $sec % 60;
$m = ( $sec - $s ) / 60 % 60;
$h = ( $sec - $s - 60*$m ) / ( 60*60 ) % 24;
sprintf '%02d:%02d:%02d', $h, $m, $s
}
--
Gunnar Hjalmarsson
Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 02:07:04 -0700
From: Joe Smith <joe@inwap.com>
Subject: Re: uninitialized value
Message-Id: <XLSdnVWtt5GjSh3bnZ2dnUVZ_sKunZ2d@comcast.com>
tuxdna wrote:
> Check this one. This Works.
No, it doesn't.
> #!/usr/bin/
> perl
linux% perl temp.pl
Can't exec /usr/bin/ at temp.pl line 1.
After fixing the first line:
linux% perl temp
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
# => ,
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
#title -fruit- =>
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
#title -vegetables- =>
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
apple =>
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
cherry =>
Use of uninitialized value in join or string at temp line 41, <DATA> line 16.
cucumber =>
Whatever you used for posting really screwed up the formatting of the text.
What we received is apparently not the same as what you thought you posted.
-Joe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 06:44:00 -0000
From: Ilias Lazaridis <ilias@lazaridis.com>
Subject: Re: User Management and Authentication with Perl
Message-Id: <1182840240.821777.225540@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 4:26 pm, Tim Southerwood <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
> Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
> > Is there any user-management/authentication solution which could be
> > seen as the standard within the perl domain?
>
> Hi
>
> For authorisation/authentication, PAM is pretty much the defacto standard on
> linux at least.
>
> See here for a list of perl modules:
>
> http://search.cpan.org/search?query=pam&mode=all
>
> PAM is a standard client API to a variety of account and authentication
> mechanisms, including, but not limited to:
>
> local files (passwd/group/shadow)
> NIS/NIS+
> LDAP
> Kerberos
ok, sounds good.
> > Is there any solution available which makes a general interface
> > available and allows "authenticators" to be plugged-in (e.g. an
> > "Standard Unix", an "Open Id" plugin)?
>
> > Are those solutions scalable (e.g. runs first on one machine, then can
> > be moved to a dedicated authentication machine)?
>
> PAM is a client side solution. Are you asking if there is an auth/account
> server framework for perl? I don't think so - and I think you are better
> off using perl to manage in an automated way (if required) something
> existing that's proven good like kerberos plus LDAP/NIS/local-files.
I am looking for something which would give me the flexibility to:
* reuse the existent apache httppw files
* move over to the linux user management
* move over to an LDAP system
* move over to a decentral system (e.g. openID)
.
--
http://dev.lazaridis.com/lang/ticket/18
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 09:14:04 +0100
From: Tim Southerwood <ts@dionic.net>
Subject: Re: User Management and Authentication with Perl
Message-Id: <4680cacd$0$644$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk>
Ilias Lazaridis coughed up some electrons that declared:
>
> * reuse the existent apache httppw files
> * move over to the linux user management
> * move over to an LDAP system
> * move over to a decentral system (e.g. openID)
>
OK - I think PAM is what you want at the client end as you can reconfigure
the client PAM config at each stage to use different auth/account services.
I guess that for each stage, you'll need to write your own perl to manage
the backend.
I would consider getting the core data into a database of some sort
(Postgresql works well for this IME) and drive that data into the backend
via perl.
Cheers
Tim
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
Administrivia:
#The Perl-Users Digest is a retransmission of the USENET newsgroup
#comp.lang.perl.misc. For subscription or unsubscription requests, send
#the single line:
#
# subscribe perl-users
#or:
# unsubscribe perl-users
#
#to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu.
NOTE: due to the current flood of worm email banging on ruby, the smtp
server on ruby has been shut off until further notice.
To submit articles to comp.lang.perl.announce, send your article to
clpa@perl.com.
#To request back copies (available for a week or so), send your request
#to almanac@ruby.oce.orst.edu with the command "send perl-users x.y",
#where x is the volume number and y is the issue number.
#For other requests pertaining to the digest, send mail to
#perl-users-request@ruby.oce.orst.edu. Do not waste your time or mine
#sending perl questions to the -request address, I don't have time to
#answer them even if I did know the answer.
------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 583
**************************************
