[29332] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 576 Volume: 11
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Mon Jun 25 18:10:04 2007
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Mon, 25 Jun 2007 Volume: 11 Number: 576
Today's topics:
Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6? <savagebeaste@yahoo.com>
Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6? <savagebeaste@yahoo.com>
Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6? <vronans@nowheresville.spamwall>
Re: gcc help <asuter@cisco.com>
Re: Perl Best Practices - Code Formatting. <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited <james.harris.1@googlemail.com>
Re: strings with formatted characters in %ARGV <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: strings with formatted characters in %ARGV <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and <joostkremers@yahoo.com>
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:14:42 -0700
From: "Clenna Lumina" <savagebeaste@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6?
Message-Id: <5eam1oF372l89U1@mid.individual.net>
Tad McClellan wrote:
> Clenna Lumina <savagebeaste@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I have
>> seen soem regualars reepatedly tell people not to reinvent whats
>> already good and working and accepted.
>
>
> Like acceptable spelling.
>
> If some famous Perl guy would of jsut implemented a spell-correcting
> 'bot, then things would of been a lot better around here...
How is this relevant? So I speed typed. I'm sorry if I offended you,
your royal majesty.
--
CL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:29:02 -0700
From: "Clenna Lumina" <savagebeaste@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6?
Message-Id: <5eamskF379d2qU1@mid.individual.net>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>> "PG" == Purl Gurl <purlgurl@purlgurl.net> writes:
>
>> surpassed what Perl 6 can provide. Perl 6 is a dinosaur.
Why do you like to miss-quote?
<Original quote>
> On Perl 6, my personal opinion is this project is the greatest
> historical blunder for Perl's history. Seven years into this
> and no closer to being released. Once released, Perl 6 will prove
> to be very unpopular. My opinion is Perl 6 porters have wasted
> seven years of effort. Their efforts would be better invested
> by turning Perl 5 into a lean and mean machine. Perl 6 is already
> vaporware; technological advances and consumer needs have already
> surpassed what Perl 6 can provide. Perl 6 is a dinosaur.
</Original quote>
That was her opinion, not an assertion as your miss-quote seems to
imply. This is WHY one should take care not to completely obliterate any
context. Especially if you are doing it to purposely slander someone.
> no, you are the moronzilla. you know nothing of software
> engineering. you seem to respect larry so are you insulting him too?
> he works on perl6 most of his time. but you wouldn't know or really
> care.
How do you know what she does or doesn't know? Yes I know this person
has a past in the group but what good does it do to assume you know what
the extent of her knowledge is?
>> Perl core contains a declaration. This is the "our" declaration
>> for global variables. This declaration is to fix the broken
>> strict module. Crazy, yes? Writing perl core to repair a
>> broken module is inane. Years back, "our" was well accepted
>> and suggested. Over time, Perl code writers became more lazy
>> and started using "my" declarations for globals. This is, of
>> course, incorrect syntax, bad syntax. Nonetheless, discussion
>
> typical crapola from moronzilla, confusing syntax (all perl syntax is
> correct for perl syntax) from semantics. my doesn't declare globals
> either. my declares lexicals. look that one up.
Well, using 'my' at the top of the main code page is effectively a
global to anything coming after it, be it subs, or whatnot.
>> "Don't use globals! Don't use an our declaration!" None know
>> why, no thinking behind this, rather monkey see, monkey do.
>> The false Gods of Perl scream this, so all the mindless minions
>> join in on this screaming. They have not a clue why, however.
>
> globals are bad and not good in any language. but you wouldn't
> understand that anyhow. i write this for others to realize how little
> you know.
How are they bad? I fully disagree. I believe they have their place,
just like anything else. One just needs to know when and how they are
appropriate.
>> Yes, Clenna, our Perl Community has become an icon of hypocrisy
>> and about all that is left of our Perl Community is a bunch of
>> control freaks who spend most of their time trolling this group,
>> which is leading to the demise of this group. This discussion
>> group is all but dead, just like Perl.
>
> so leave the perl community already. no one wants you here but
> yourself and you just bitch and moan. whining and stupidity are not
> wanted here. learn python instead.
Please do not speak for anyone other than yourself. Makes you look like
an arrogant pusshog.
--
CL
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:32:20 -0700
From: "Vronans" <vronans@nowheresville.spamwall>
Subject: Re: FAQ 1.6 What is perl6?
Message-Id: <YfmdncMclonEux3bnZ2dnUVZ_qKqnZ2d@wavecable.com>
Uri Guttman wrote:
>>>>>> "MD" == Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it> writes:
>
>> Uri, no need to! Please... everytime I read these interventions of
>> yours I start wondering who is the most moronic of you and it: do you
>> *really* expect anyone in his or her sane state of mind not to have
>> at least a clue out of its style, prose and stuff like "The false
>> Gods of Perl".
>
> i do this (not as often) for google and posterity. people who search
> and find moronzilla posts will also find rebuttals. notice that
> moronzilla never gets into existing threads and only goes after
> newbies (and occaisionally hooks them). call this a precautionary
> measure.
And what you do is a whole lot better? Your "rebuttals" prolong such
threads and often in the wrong direction. Face it, you do more harm than
good. And you horrible writing style just makes you look all the more
antagonistic.
Grow up.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:16:21 -0700
From: "Asim Suter" <asuter@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: gcc help
Message-Id: <1182802582.979782@sj-nntpcache-2.cisco.com>
<rogv24@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1182801260.342589.195890@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 25, 3:24 pm, "Asim Suter" <asu...@cisco.com> wrote:
>> <rog...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1182799109.574291.145310@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >I need to download gcc for a solaris server then recompile perl with
>> > gcc.
>> > I have never done this. Can some one recommend a download website.
>>
>> Tryhttp://gcc.gnu.org/
>> So far so good.
>>
>> > Once the module is downloaded
>> > How do I recompile with perl.
>>
>> ??
>> Can you explain what you want exactly ?
>>
>> Regards.
>> Asim Suter
>
> thanks for the website. After I download gcc what needs to be done?
There should be a README file and/or INSTALL file with the instructions.
Regards.
Asim Suter
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:02:05 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: Perl Best Practices - Code Formatting.
Message-Id: <pk7083pg894cuken3t6367j7fublrj6f74@4ax.com>
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:41:56 -0700, "Wayne M. Poe"
<louisREMOVE@REMOVEh4h.com> wrote:
>>> as for the tab indents, i was supporting damian's and my positions,
>>> not the perlmonk nor his purported ancestry. and since JC had no
>>> biological father and therefore no Y chromosome, how could he begat
>>> any sons? :)
>
>He was created in some way or another, and carried by a women. Maybe the
>process in which he was created (by God or so) he was given all the
>necessary fill-ins.
>
>Too bad there wasn't an autopsy :)
A simple cellular sample would suffice. And now that you make me think
of it wine is supposed to *become* (as opposed to *symbolize* - at
least for the Catholic Church, hey I'm Italian and I know these
things) his blood during the consacration. So the question should be
easy to settle down. I wonder why nobody has thought of this before...
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 13:55:59 -0700
From: James Harris <james.harris.1@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: Portable general timestamp format, not 2038-limited
Message-Id: <1182804959.215548.110140@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>
On 25 Jun, 02:14, rem6...@yahoo.com (Robert Maas, see http://tinyurl.com/uh3t)
wrote:
> > From: James Harris <james.harri...@googlemail.com>
> > I have a requirement to store timestamps in a database. ...
> > 1) subsecond resolution - milliseconds or, preferably, more detailed
>
> How do you plan to deal with leap seconds?
> - Stick to astronomical time, which is absolutely consistent but
> which drifts from legal time?
> - Stick to legal time (UTC), which stalls by one second from time
> to time, causing time-difference calculations to be incorrect by
> varying numbers of seconds?
> Only after you make *that* crucial decision, will it be reasonable
> to consider milliseconds or other sub-second resolution.
Not a problem for me. I will be taking samples and storing either
point samples or averages depending on the value being sampled. Pseudo-
GMT will be good enough. Astronimical time will be no good as the time
is to relate to the time of day the samples were taken. I think I can
just use the time as returned by the language I am using (which
presumably will get it from a C system call or similar). If one sample
over midnight when a leap second adjustment happens turns out to be
slightly incorrect it won't skew the results significantly. I could
sanity check the time, though. Hmmm.....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:11:22 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: strings with formatted characters in %ARGV
Message-Id: <70808352v2uvdti8a58tjdj19r4f1ju2hm@4ax.com>
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 09:33:13 -0700, mfrost8@gmail.com wrote:
>Subject: strings with formatted characters in %ARGV
Nope, there's nothing useful in the hash slot of *ARGV that I know of.
>I'm trying to pass one or more formatted (i.e. with '\n' in it)
>strings to a perl program and have them print with the formatting.
It's not "formatted". It just contains "\n"s. (Not '\n's, BTW, at
least when speaking Perl.)
>Consider the following perl code:
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> print $ARGV[0];
>
>Now if I run the program as follows:
>
> $ ./x.pl "FOO\n\n\n"
>
>I get
>
> FOO\n\n\n$
That's to be expected. That's what the *shell* is giving to your Perl
program. You have to ask the shell to pass in real newlines, as
opposed to whatever else:
kirk:~ [22:08:08]$ perl -le 'print $ARGV[0]' 'FOO
>
>
> '
FOO
kirk:~ [22:08:32]$
>which I don't understand. If I set a scalar string within the program
^^^^^^
^^^^^^
>similarly:
>
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> my $foo = "FOO\n\n\n";
> print $foo;
>
>I get what I'd expect.
You SAID it. If you set it *within* the program, then you have the
perl interpreter handle the thing otherwise you let the shell do so.
>What am I missing here? Why can't I get print/printf to honor those
>special characters when used from the command line?
Do you want to pass a literal '\n\n\n' and have Perl interpret it as
if it were "\n\n\n\"? The roll your own quoted stuff expansion routine
or -if you're brave enough- use string eval: be prepared to be open to
all sorts of security risks if doing so, though.
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:20:00 +0200
From: Michele Dondi <bik.mido@tiscalinet.it>
Subject: Re: strings with formatted characters in %ARGV
Message-Id: <rg8083dkdacv7luhip7n951mjr95rn8b9d@4ax.com>
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 11:51:06 -0700, mfrost8@gmail.com wrote:
>I could see this in the case of variables in a string -- how would
>perl know what "$foo" is? But I would have thought that
>representations of special characters like '\n' would be treated
>differently.
The rationale is that one wants to do so rarely enough that it'd
better *not* be the default and that there's an easy enough way to do
so when needed.
>So then this means that I have to parse out all the 2-character
>sequences myself and replace them? I read the FAQ entry that the
>previous poster sent and it seemed to use a regex to do substitutions
>on the string which then replaced the same string with itself. I
With an /ee modifier. But it is string eval, and thus evil(TM).
Fortunately ou don't need it yourself...
>didn't have much success bending that FAQ to do my bidding. I tried a
>few things, but the last thing I tried was simply
>
>my $foo =3D $ARGV[0];
>$foo =3D~ s/(\\n)/$1/g;
Try
$foo =~ s/\\n/\n/g;
(No need to capture)
>print $foo;
>
>Which didn't seem to change anything.
In fact you substituted what you matched with... er... well... itself!
Michele
--
{$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
(($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
.'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:20:44 GMT
From: blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5eaptcF378d21U3@mid.individual.net>
In article <1182657564.912472.55570@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 10:36 am, Martin Gregorie <mar...@see.sig.for.address>
> wrote:
[ snip ]
> * The operating system where you can do powerful stuff with a command
> line and a script or two, but can also get by without either. (Windows
> fails the former. Linux fails the latter.)
About the latter -- it's hard for me to be sure, since for many
things something with a GUI is not my first choice of tool, but
my impression is that on "user-friendly" Linux distributions,
pretty much everything, including sysadmin stuff, can be done by
pointing and clicking, starting with the menus displayed on the
default desktop. Perhaps someone with more/different experience
can comment on how many things still require scripting or a
command line.
[ snip ]
--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:32:38 GMT
From: blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5eaqjmF36ga72U1@mid.individual.net>
In article <1182661040.286559.150880@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 23, 2:04 am, Robert Uhl <eadmun...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
[ snip ]
> Apparently because you find the switch second nature, despite its not
> being the obvious (which is ctrl-tab, to switch between documents in
> an MDI app). Cheat sheet? Memorized with painstaking months of hard
> effort? Thanks for proving my point, either way.
Not really ragging on you, however it seems, but this is a pet
peeve of mine, and I have a few minutes, and this thread is
already pretty much out of control, so ....
Painstaking months of hard effort? You know, I started out in
the days before GUIs, so I have experience with cheat sheets,
but I don't remember ever being given one and being told that
there would be a quiz in a week, or a month, or whatever.
Instead, I used the cheat sheet at first, and over the course
of the first few -- hours, weeks, I don't know -- found that I
needed it less and less, as the commands I actually used in my
daily work made their way into my memory. (Does that mean that
I didn't memorize all the commands on the cheat sheet? Maybe.
But the ones I didn't learn were ones I didn't need.)
To me it's similar to "memorizing" a phone number by dialing
it enough times that it makes its way into memory without
conscious effort. I suspect that not everyone's brain works
this way, and some people have to look it up every time.
For those people, I can understand why something without a
GUI could be a painful experience. "YMMV", maybe.
[ snip ]
--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:36:22 GMT
From: blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5eaqqlF36ga72U2@mid.individual.net>
In article <1182731526.329068.101540@c77g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 24, 7:19 pm, Robert Uhl <eadmun...@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote:
[ snip ]
> > emacs has continued doing its own thing, mostly because that thing is
> > better. The CUA standards (there exists an emacs package if you really
> > want them) are broken and lame--I and most other don't wish to cripple
> > our text editor of choice.
>
> "CUA standards"? I'm sorry, I don't speak Botswanan. If you mean
> Windows standards like for cut, copy, and paste,
Pretty much. "Common User Access". I thought this was a
well-known acronym in Windowsland, but I guess not. A Google
search on "CUA" finds the Wikipedia article as the second hit.
[ snip ]
--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 21:43:28 GMT
From: blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm@myrealbox.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <5ear80F36ga72U3@mid.individual.net>
In article <m31wg480r6.fsf@borud.not>,
Bjorn Borud <borud-news@borud.no> wrote:
[ snip ]
> a lot of IDE's are getting quite good and you don't have to mouse
> around all that much. I think the main reason I stick to Emacs is
> because I use it for a wider range of tasks -- not just programming.
>
> also, the IDE's I've used in the past were sluggish and for some
> reason the font-rendering was really hard to get right (if at
> all). when you spend the majority of your waking hours editing text,
> interactive response time and "editing ergonomics" matter a lot.
>
>
> this reminds me that it is probably time to give IDEs another chance.
> it has been a couple of years since the last time I tried a couple for
> Java.
>
A few words from someone else with a strong preference for "learn
one editor well and use it for all text editing" (though maybe
I should admit that my preference is for vim) ....:
I use Eclipse in teaching second-semester programming, mostly
because my department decided it was good to expose students to
command-line tools in CS1 and a "modern" IDE in CS2. In general
it's annoying not to have all those years of vi(m) experience
making things easy for me, and a lot of the features others find
wonderful I find annoying, *but*:
Eclipse has something that generates "import" statements with
a few keystrokes, and for me that's almost in the "killer app
[feature]" class. (Why do I strongly suspect that with the
right plug-ins emacs can do this too? :-) That would send
me searching for the Web site where vim macros are collected.)
--
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 22:01:04 -0000
From: Twisted <twisted0n3@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <1182808864.211161.155920@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
On Jun 25, 8:40 am, Martin Gregorie <mar...@see.sig.for.address>
wrote:
> Twisted wrote:
> > The manuals came with the computers, at no additional charge. It was a
> > different time. This isn't going to be true of any separately-
> > purchased book or user-made printout concerning emacs. Also, the
> > manuals provided a basic introduction for the beginning user. A
> > traditional-unix-tool providing anything resembling that would
> > genuinely shock me.
>
> Oh, so manuals are OK and you'll read them if they are dead trees that
> came in the same box as the software, but not if they're HOWTOs, online
> documentation or O'Reilly books?
I think I need to clarify. What I expect is that I can have the
application and the documentation open side by side, a) without
needing to use the application's own navigation methods to navigate to/
from or within the documentation given that that can create a
catch-22, and b) without paying extra.
If a printed manual comes with the thing, without paying extra, then
it clearly qualifies as such documentation.
If I have to print it myself it doesn't, because ink doesn't grow on
trees. Paper does, but they still manage to charge money for that too.
If I have to purchase the manual separately it likewise doesn't.
So the options are: printed manual that ships with the software at no
extra charge, or online documentation I can read "the normal way".
Emacs in control of the console has neither. (Emacs relegated to a
single terminal window on a graphical workstation may not have such a
big problem.)
Regardless, having to reach for the help every two minutes doesn't
enamor me of an application unless there's a darn good reason for it,
such as it's actually rocket science. 3D modeling I expect to be
tricky at times. Text editing should be just-sit-down-crack-knuckles-
and-do-it obviously.
> > Oh, because the implementation (of "reveal codes" and of everything
> > else) was awful, not because of any intrinsic flaw in the idea itself.
>
> If a word processor, which by definition is provides a WYSIWYG user
> interface, can't produce perfectly formatted text by editing a
> representation of the finished result then its a deeply flawed program
> and not fit for purpose.
First, I didn't claim the ideal WP was necessarily perfectly WYSIWYG.
On the other hand, even so it might be that hand-hacking the
underlying representation might in some cases be a faster way to
achieve a particular goal than doing it "the WYSIWYG way". You'd still
have a WYSIWYG preview available either way of course.
> > Would you want to edit a Web page without being able to hand-hack the
> > HTML?
>
> Of course not, but HTML isn't anything to do with WYSIWYG and any system
> (Coldfusion, Front Page, HTML from Word) that pretends it is WYSIWG is
> both useless and perpetrating a fraud.
Your quiet change from discussing word processing to discussing
WYSIWYG is interesting. Is that how you generally go about fighting
your verbal battles, by quietly shifting the specific thing under
debate to whatever would have made your opponent blatantly wrong IF
they had been talking about that thing instead of what they really
were?
> > What happened to the guys that did all this stuff after it became
> > obsolete?
>
> It isn't obsolete despite going back a looong way. The hardware and
> software was originally developed as Future Series (intended S/360
> replacement), was canned in 1970 but resurfaced in the late 80s as
> System/38. A second generation appeared as AS/400, was renamed to (I
> think) Z-series and are now known as iSeries servers. Its good, reliable
> kit and easy to work with if you don't mind programming in RPG.
Programming in role-playing game? And I meant my roguelike-filesystem-
interface suggestion at least partly in jest...
Anyway, obsolete or merely obscure, it obviously failed to hit the big
time since us ordinary joes are still mostly using various forms of
Windoze and wishing for something more reliable and secure that didn't
also have gratuitous user interface weirdnesses.
> I know of no better "one size fits all" interface design than that
> provided by the OS/400 operating system. Its still called that. Its a
> pity the interface style hasn't been emulated by others.
If it's so great, why hasn't it, and why hasn't OS/400 managed to
escape from persistent obscurity?
> It was standard with Win 3.1 and 3.11 and it was bloody useless. Most
> people I know tried it once or twice before giving up and writing .BAT
> files or putting up with RSI. The problem was that it recorded
> keystrokes and mouse clicks. Even minor changes to the screen layout
> made it fail and the macros couldn't be edited or parameterised nor made
> to prompt for filenames, etc.
In other words, the implementation was a dog. That doesn't refute the
basic concept's validity. If it recorded mouse actions by noting the
keyboard equivalents (e.g. recorded a file menu drop down and file
open click as alt, f, o given that the application has the usual
keybindings in the file menu), and provided ways for advanced users to
edit them and such ...
In response to the other postings of the last 24 hours or so I have
just two things to say:
1. Regarding someone saying I had "no clue how to do things in Unix"
when I noted that the inability to copy and paste graphics or other
non-ascii data between applications caused awkwardness, I don't see
any grounds there for an insulting response. If desktop environments
do provide some mechanism suitable for generic clipboard actions (the
basic X clipboard is clearly inadequate) then they do so unobviously,
and probably all differently from one another. Being able to do
serious work with graphics requires being able to move snippets of
graphics around handily without all the mechanics of explicitly saving
them all to various temporary files, and later remembering to delete
the files. More generally, if a common Windows workflow isn't
supported, then even if an alternative workflow is that is as
effective and efficient it would take some getting used to.
Interface-wise, the world has standardized on how Windoze (and the
Mac) does things. Breaking such defacto standards makes software
harder to use by the vast majority of likely new users.
2. Regarding these graphical derivatives (apparently plural) of emacs,
has nobody considered that this means that Xah had already won before
he'd even fired his shot? :P Someone obviously felt the need for a
more usable emacs and delivered one. In that case it's a fait
accompli. Criticisms leveled at original-emacs shouldn't bother users
of the graphical versions regardless. The one complaint might be that
both of us had out of date information and were fighting a war our
side had already won years ago. :)
Unless of course these are all klunky bolted-on GUIs of the sort all
too common when porting unix software to Windows or the Mac or for use
under X, which don't work quite right or are clearly poorly integrated
with the application's internals...about which I currently have no
information. And no, I'm not about to spend hours downloading half a
gig of bloated who-knows-what just to find out, tyvm. :)
------------------------------
Date: 25 Jun 2007 22:01:44 GMT
From: Joost Kremers <joostkremers@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Modernization of Emacs: terminology buffer and keybinding
Message-Id: <slrnf80eok.c34.joostkremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl>
[Followup-To: header set to comp.emacs]
blmblm myrealbox.com wrote:
> Eclipse has something that generates "import" statements with
> a few keystrokes, and for me that's almost in the "killer app
> [feature]" class. (Why do I strongly suspect that with the
> right plug-ins emacs can do this too? :-)
because emacs exposes its lisp system to the user, allowing one to add
basically any functionality one can come up with? ;-)
--
Joost Kremers joostkremers@yahoo.com
Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht
EN:SiS(9)
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Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
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Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
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End of Perl-Users Digest V11 Issue 576
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