[24793] in Perl-Users-Digest
Perl-Users Digest, Issue: 6946 Volume: 10
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Thu Sep 2 11:11:07 2004
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Perl-Users Digest <Perl-Users-Request@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU>
To: Perl-Users@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (Perl-Users Digest)
Perl-Users Digest Thu, 2 Sep 2004 Volume: 10 Number: 6946
Today's topics:
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Rob Warnock)
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Rob Warnock)
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <peter@engcorp.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <lynn@garlic.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <lynn@garlic.com>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism (Dave Hansen)
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <john.thingstad@chello.no>
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism jmfbahciv@aol.com
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism joe@invalid.address
Re: Xah Lee's Unixism <john.thingstad@chello.no>
Re: YOU ALL SUCK! (Bengt Richter)
Re: YOU ALL SUCK! <richard@zync.co.uk>
Re: YOU ALL SUCK! <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk>
Re: YOU ALL SUCK! (Carl Scharenberg)
Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01) (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:20:35 GMT
From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <d7ldj01jstaq62lhr57f2k9dsoft3b51vo@4ax.com>
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:30:38 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
Ian Wilson <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk> wrote:
>David Schwartz wrote:
>
>> 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* UNIX.
>...
>> only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism'
>
>Sorry, I don't see how an activity can be affected by something that has
>nothing to do with that activity.
>
>Are you suggesting that Unix users don't have to deal with unixism? If
>that were so, why would Xah Lee have such a bee in his bonnet about it? [2]
>
>Xah Lee says "unix should mean unixism, the way things are done in unix
>platform" [1]
>
>Xah Lee also says "the unix shells ... is one giant unpurgeable shit
>pile arose from ad hoc hacks of unixism." [2]
>
>It seems legit to wonder why he chooses to place his web-pages amongst
>shit piles.
ISTM that the criticism was better expressed by PDP-10ers in the "Unix
Hater's Handbook", available online. For further thoughts, read plan 9
documents, to see where the original implementors agree.
OTOH there's the other OSes that crash, crawl, or just get in the way
of getting work done because you've got to do it their way or else!
Feel free to use them instead, and be prepared to pay thru the nose.
If you don't like some standard Unix OS feature, there's probably
another one out there based on every system which ever existed to
download, or you could write your own.
If you don't like a standard Unix shell, there's probably another one
out there based on every system which ever existed to download, or you
could write your own.
If you don't like a standard Unix editor, there's probably another one
out there based on every system which ever existed to download, or you
could write your own.
etc...
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
fake address use address above to reply
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:30:21 GMT
From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <86mdj05ucclb3tqjqgevum54o7k8jt2msq@4ax.com>
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:14 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers,
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Craig A. Finseth <news@finseth.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| Ville Vainio <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
>| >... and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>| >programs (which think / is for command line options).
>| >Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>| >have only lately started to have some regrets...
>|
>| Wrong. The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
>| whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
>| after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
>+---------------
>
>Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
>PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
>
>+---------------
>| Consider the "PIP" command.
>+---------------
>
>Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:
mount a ...
attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...
It's been too long!
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
fake address use address above to reply
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:35:30 GMT
From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Andre Majorel wrote:
>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>
>>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>
>>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
>>
>>
>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>> Unix-style file handles ?
>
>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since 2.0, MS has
>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
what causes the crashes!
--
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Brian.Inglis@CSi.com (Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
fake address use address above to reply
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 03:55:28 -0500
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <ApudnfQdCY-dfavcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
+---------------
| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
| >+---------------
| >
| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
|
| Well, not quite :-). COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
| command. DIRECT became its own program. To do a directory
| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
+---------------
Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 04:00:04 -0500
From: rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock)
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <ApudnfcdCY-JfKvcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>
Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.ab.ca> wrote:
+---------------
| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
| >Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
| >PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
| >
| >+---------------
| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
| >+---------------
| >
| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
|
| But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:
| mount a ...
| attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...
+---------------
Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
before that.
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403 (650)572-2607
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:52:51 -0400
From: Peter Hansen <peter@engcorp.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <YLednXSn7obciqrcRVn-og@powergate.ca>
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
> wyrmwif@tango-sierra-oscar-foxtrot-tango.fake.org "SM Ryan" wrote:
>>There's a story about why railroad tracks are spaced the way they are.
>
> Is this the one about two Roman horses' arses? If so, it also accounts
> for the physical dimensions of the Space Shuttle's boosters.
A quick search using Google will show that while there is a
certain amount of truth in the original story, most of the
details are wrong, and the final bit about the booster rockets
is unsubstantiated. But it's still a cute story.
-Peter
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 11:49:43 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371ba4$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <ApudnfQdCY-dfavcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>| >+---------------
>| >
>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>|
>| Well, not quite :-). COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
>| command. DIRECT became its own program. To do a directory
>| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
>+---------------
>
>Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
>of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
>That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.
IIRC, those verbs didn't show up until after 4S72 of TOPS-10 (it
wasn't TOPS-10 back then either). I would also suspect that
the PIP didn't originate at DEC either. A lot of those guys
did work at MIT before they coalasced into a startup company.
My whole point is that attributing who started it is not
as interesting as how the "it" flowed through the biz.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 11:50:48 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371be5$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <%hmZc.17354$ni.569@okepread01>,
Steve Holden <sholden@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In article <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>> red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:
>>
>>>CBFalconer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Let the editor flame wars begin!
>>>
>>>Get gvim! www.vim.org
>>
>>
>> You think notepad is an editor? <snort> You must be young
>> and inexperienced in the ways of Real Man's Editing sports.
>>
>My choice? Definitely TECO, a real programmable editor from the TOPS10
days.
>
>It would create a file if invoked by the "make" command. If you typed
>"make love" it would respond with "...not war?" before beginning the edit.
Yup. Definitely a side effect of a pony-tailed hippie protesting
the Nam war.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:12:21 -0600
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <upt54erwq.fsf@mail.comcast.net>
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
> before that.
there may have been a little bit of common tracing back to the ctss
days ... however recent posting about him using cp/cms at npg when
he was writing pl/m
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#40 Which Monitor Would You Pick????
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 07:14:21 -0600
From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <ullfserte.fsf@mail.comcast.net>
Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> writes:
> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
> what causes the crashes!
and unix goes back to multics ... which was on 5th floor, 545 tech sq.
while cp/cms was at the science center on 4th floor, 545 tech sq ...
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
and they both go backto ctss
--
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 11:56:01 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371d1e$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <1599.740T867T6683932@kltpzyxm.invalid>,
"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>In article <Yb6Zc.32434$Es2.12983421@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
>jwkenne@attglobal.net (John W. Kennedy) writes:
>
>>Craig A. Finseth wrote:
>>
>>> Wrong. The / was chosen as the command line option separator
>>> because whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled
>>> their commands after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?). Consider
>>> the "PIP" command.
>
>At least PIP would copy zero-length files.
Until I started using this braindead OS, I hadn't realized
how spoiled I was w.r.t. combining listed files into one.
>
>>> When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they
>>> found that "/" was already taken, so they used "\". But there
>>> was a hidden way to tell the command interpreter that it could
>>> use "-" for options.
>>
>>Except, of course, that it was useless, because 99% of programs did
>>their own option parsing, and still do. The hidden option only lasted
>>one .1 subrelease, as I recall.
>
>Yes, my programs indeed do their own parsing. And they insist on
>"-", no matter which OS they're running on. :-)
<GRIN> And everybody had to invent their own continuation
characters.
>
>>> And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
>>> and "\" interchangably.
>>
>>...which is /one/ thing that the FLOSS community can honestly thank them
>>for.
>
>Now, do you trust Microsoft to keep it that way? I don't. That's why
>my programs are full of things like:
>
>#ifdef DOSWIN
> strcat (filespec, "\\");
>#else
> strcat (filespec, "/");
>#endif
>
>Yes, it's bulky and ugly. But it's also future-proof.
>
Well, it is until code substitution at execution time
is provided as a service.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 11:58:35 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371db9$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <ApudnfcdCY-JfKvcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.ab.ca> wrote:
>+---------------
>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>| >Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
>| >PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
>| >
>| >+---------------
>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>| >+---------------
>| >
>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>|
>| But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:
>| mount a ...
>| attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...
>+---------------
>
>Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
>before that.
Sigh! Fortunately, IBMers and DECcies all spoke English.
There were a few words that were spelt differently just
to satisfy NIH syndromes.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 12:01:19 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
>Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Andre Majorel wrote:
>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>>
>>>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>>
>>>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>>> Unix-style file handles ?
>>
>>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since 2.0, MS has
>>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
>
>MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
All right. Now I'm mystified. Why did they have to borrow code
from Unix? They already had VMS. ISTM, VMS had all of the
above.
>Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
>what causes the crashes!
Nope. If you want to know what will get added to the next release
of MS' OSes, just read their small company acquisitions in the WSJ.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 13:23:03 GMT
From: iddw@hotmail.com (Dave Hansen)
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41371ea0.582576421@News.individual.net>
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:43:03 +0100 (BST), bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian
{Hamilton Kelly}) wrote:
>On Wednesday, in article
> <10jc7cu7e57koaa@corp.supernews.com>
> wyrmwif@tango-sierra-oscar-foxtrot-tango.fake.org "SM Ryan"
> wrote:
>
>> There's a story about why railroad tracks are spaced the way they are.
>
>Is this the one about two Roman horses' arses? If so, it also accounts
>for the physical dimensions of the Space Shuttle's boosters.
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.htm
Regards,
-=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 16:17:30 +0200
From: "John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <opsdpdzglzpqzri1@mjolner.upc.no>
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:35:30 GMT, Brian Inglis
<Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
> Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Andre Majorel wrote:
>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>> Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>>
>>>>> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>>
>>>> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>>> Unix-style file handles ?
>>
>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator. Ever since 2.0, MS has
>> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
>
> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
> what causes the crashes!
>
You seeem misinformed.
Microsoft swallowed up a team from DEC.
The were developing a operating system called PRISM.
When the project was cancelled they quit DEC in protest.
These peaple had more than a 100 years of experience in developing
muliuser /
mutitasking operating systems between them. The fact that the NT kernel is
not
entirely stable yet really shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has
messed with
it's kernel for 30 years. But the modular arcitecture and the microkernel
are new ideas in
OS design and should in time lead to a more extensible OS than unix.
(Unix tradionally has a spagetti of intercalling function calls as a
kernel.)
As for following standards thats just plain sense.
Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the problems
with
interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 13:09:41 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41372e62$0$19727$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0409011503400.4389@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk>,
"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> You'ld probably get further about who's on first by knowing that
>> the guy who did OS-8 also did TOPS-10 monitor work.
>
>I have here my manual of the "Cambridge Multiple-Access System -
>User's Reference Manual" (that's Cambridge, England) dated 1968. The
>file system hierarchy separator is "/".
And slash was used as a command modifier on the -10s.
File specification parsing used :: : [ ] < > , .
(Note that I did not use punctuation in that last sentence;
all those characters denoted a piece of a full file specification.
A slash said, "Here comes an exception to the last phrase
of the command."
>
>I don't know where -they- got the convention from in the first place,
>admittedly.
Trial and error. Historic usage. Typability. Printability.
Not to mention the limitations of characters defined in the
ASCII-1964 standard.
>
>ObPDP: the TITAN system had a PDP7 as a peripheral device, sort-of.
I don't think I ever met a PDP-7.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 13:10:34 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41372e97$0$19727$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <m3vfeyc6mn.fsf@invalid.address>, joe@invalid.address wrote:
>Steve Holden <sholden@holdenweb.com> writes:
>
>> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > In article <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>> > red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:
>> >
>> >>CBFalconer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Let the editor flame wars begin!
>> >>
>> >>Get gvim! www.vim.org
>> > You think notepad is an editor? <snort> You must be young
>> > and inexperienced in the ways of Real Man's Editing sports.
>> >
>> My choice? Definitely TECO, a real programmable editor from the
>> TOPS10 days.
>>
>> It would create a file if invoked by the "make" command. If you
>> typed "make love" it would respond with "...not war?" before
>> beginning the edit.
>
>But can it quote Zippy the Pinhead?
Who?
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 04 13:13:33 GMT
From: jmfbahciv@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <41372f4a$0$19727$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>
In article <ullfserte.fsf@mail.comcast.net>,
Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> writes:
>> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
>> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
>> what causes the crashes!
>
>and unix goes back to multics ... which was on 5th floor, 545 tech sq.
>while cp/cms was at the science center on 4th floor, 545 tech sq ...
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
>and they both go backto ctss
>
And everybody seems to think that those people never talked to
each other. Even boasting about whose is bigger, faster,
and longer would transmit new ideas among the bit setters.
/BAH
Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:51:27 GMT
From: joe@invalid.address
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <m33c20d8r5.fsf@invalid.address>
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
> In article <m3vfeyc6mn.fsf@invalid.address>, joe@invalid.address wrote:
> >Steve Holden <sholden@holdenweb.com> writes:
> >
> >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
> >> > red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>CBFalconer wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>>Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>Let the editor flame wars begin!
> >> >>
> >> >>Get gvim! www.vim.org
> >> > You think notepad is an editor? <snort> You must be young
> >> > and inexperienced in the ways of Real Man's Editing sports.
> >> >
> >> My choice? Definitely TECO, a real programmable editor from the
> >> TOPS10 days.
> >>
> >> It would create a file if invoked by the "make" command. If you
> >> typed "make love" it would respond with "...not war?" before
> >> beginning the edit.
> >
> >But can it quote Zippy the Pinhead?
>
> Who?
http://www.zippythepinhead.com/
If you're runnning emacs, you can get a quote from him with M-X yow
Not exactly a typical editor function, agreed. I was feeling a little
whimsical at the time.
Joe
--
If you don't think too good, don't think too much
- Ted Williams
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 16:58:15 +0200
From: "John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no>
Subject: Re: Xah Lee's Unixism
Message-Id: <opsdpfvdjepqzri1@mjolner.upc.no>
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 14:51:27 GMT, <joe@invalid.address> wrote:
> jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <m3vfeyc6mn.fsf@invalid.address>, joe@invalid.address wrote:
>> >Steve Holden <sholden@holdenweb.com> writes:
>> >
>> >> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > In article <aN2Zc.10226$QJ3.5466@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>> >> > red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >>CBFalconer wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Dump Notepad and get Textpad. www.textpad.com. First class.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Let the editor flame wars begin!
>> >> >>
>> >> >>G etgvim!www.vim.org
>> >> > You think notepad is an editor? <snort> You must be young
>> >> > and inexperienced in the ways of Real Man's Editing sports.
>> >> >
>> >> My choice? Definitely TECO, a real programmable editor from the
>> >> TOPS10 days.
>> >>
>> >> It would create a file if invoked by the "make" command. If you
>> >> typed "make love" it would respond with "...not war?" before
>> >> beginning the edit.
>> >
>> >But can it quote Zippy the Pinhead?
>>
>> Who?
>
> http://www.zippythepinhead.com/
>
> If you're runnning emacs, you can get a quote from him with M-X yow
>
> Not exactly a typical editor function, agreed. I was feeling a little
> whimsical at the time.
>
> Joe
altso try psykoanalize-pinhead ;)
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
------------------------------
Date: 2 Sep 2004 07:54:24 GMT
From: bokr@oz.net (Bengt Richter)
Subject: Re: YOU ALL SUCK!
Message-Id: <ch6jjg$g5t$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>
On 2 Sep 2004 06:17:05 GMT, Eric Bohlman <ebohlman@omsdev.com> wrote:
>"Amanita, Love Ewe" <ladyamanita@aol.com> wrote in
>news:1bf5bcb9.15695836@aol.com:
>
>> Sharon expects the printer within hers and actually looks. Why will
>> you grasp the ugly worthwhile onions before Satam does? Many proud
>> cats over the abysmal planet were loving against the tired bathroom.
>
>This seems to be of somewhat better quality than the output of the typical
>random-text generator. Can anyone suggest something on CPAN useful for
>such?
Clearly, the speaker-hearer's linguistic intuition suffices
to account for the levels of acceptability from fairly high
(e.g. (99a)) to virtual gibberish (e.g. (98d)). Presumably,
the fundamental error of regarding functional notions as
categorial is not subject to an important distinction in
language use. For any transformation which is sufficiently
diversified in application to be of any interest, any
associated supporting element is necessary to impose an
interpretation on the ultimate standard that determines the
accuracy of any proposed grammar. If the position of the
trace in (99c) were only relatively inaccessible to movement,
most of the methodological work in modern linguistics does
not readily tolerate a general convention regarding the forms
of the grammar. Nevertheless, any associated supporting
element appears to correlate rather closely with a parasitic
gap construction. Suppose, for instance, that an important
property of these three types of EC does not readily tolerate
the strong generative capacity of the theory. Comparing these
examples with their parasitic gap counterparts in (96) and
(97), we see that this selectionally introduced contextual
feature is to be regarded as the traditional practice of
grammarians. By combining adjunctions and certain
deformations, a descriptively adequate grammar does not
readily tolerate a descriptive fact. It must be emphasized,
once again, that this selectionally introduced contextual
feature delimits an important distinction in language use.
Regards,
Bengt Richter
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 10:32:14 +0100
From: "Richard Gration" <richard@zync.co.uk>
Subject: Re: YOU ALL SUCK!
Message-Id: <ch6pcp$42d$1@news.freedom2surf.net>
In article <ch6jjg$g5t$0$216.39.172.122@theriver.com>, "Bengt Richter"
<bokr@oz.net> wrote:
> Clearly, the speaker-hearer's linguistic intuition suffices to
> account for the levels of acceptability from fairly high (e.g.
> (99a)) to virtual gibberish (e.g. (98d)). Presumably, the
> fundamental error of regarding functional notions as categorial
> is not subject to an important distinction in language use. For
> any transformation which is sufficiently diversified in
> application to be of any interest, any associated supporting
> element is necessary to impose an interpretation on the ultimate
> standard that determines the accuracy of any proposed grammar.
> If the position of the trace in (99c) were only relatively
> inaccessible to movement, most of the methodological work in
> modern linguistics does not readily tolerate a general
> convention regarding the forms of the grammar. Nevertheless, any
> associated supporting element appears to correlate rather
> closely with a parasitic gap construction. Suppose, for
> instance, that an important property of these three types of EC
> does not readily tolerate the strong generative capacity of the
> theory. Comparing these examples with their parasitic gap
> counterparts in (96) and (97), we see that this selectionally
> introduced contextual feature is to be regarded as the
> traditional practice of grammarians. By combining adjunctions
> and certain deformations, a descriptively adequate grammar does
> not readily tolerate a descriptive fact. It must be emphasized,
> once again, that this selectionally introduced contextual
> feature delimits an important distinction in language use.
Ironically, this seems to look rather like the output of a sentence
generator ;-) Anyone remember "Goedel, Escher, Bach" and the 12
paragraphs out of which you were challenged to select the 3 actually
written by a human? I've not seen anything since which measured up to
those 9 carefully selected heuristically generated sentences.
Rich
PS Anyone ever read even a page of "The Rhetoric Of The Image" by Roland
Barthes? Sheesh.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 11:53:31 +0100
From: "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: YOU ALL SUCK!
Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0409021151240.5805@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk>
On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Richard Gration wrote:
> Ironically, this seems to look rather like the output of a sentence
> generator ;-)
It was new to me, but a little work with Google suggests that it
could be output from something called the "Chomsky bot" or chombot.
http://www.dansanderson.com/blog/archives/2000/10/ive_seen_spamme.php
------------------------------
Date: 2 Sep 2004 06:29:18 -0700
From: carl.scharenberg@gmail.com (Carl Scharenberg)
Subject: Re: YOU ALL SUCK!
Message-Id: <e930c085.0409020529.2db830fc@posting.google.com>
> This seems to be of somewhat better quality than the output of the typical
> random-text generator. Can anyone suggest something on CPAN useful for
> such?
You can do this by analyzing a sample text at a higher level. Instead
of generating text from the frequency of single letters, you generate
using the frequencies of 2, 3, or 4-letter sequences. You analyze a
large text so you have a database of frequencies. When generating each
new character you look at the frequences of the letters given that the
3 previous letters are 'the'. The possibilities are a space, 'r'
(their), 'y' (they), and some others. Overall it will generate words
and even phrases that seem to almost make sense. It is neat stuff.
Carl
------------------------------
Date: 6 Apr 2001 21:33:47 GMT (Last modified)
From: Perl-Users-Request@ruby.oce.orst.edu (Perl-Users-Digest Admin)
Subject: Digest Administrivia (Last modified: 6 Apr 01)
Message-Id: <null>
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------------------------------
End of Perl-Users Digest V10 Issue 6946
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