[27] in peace2
Re: WTO movement and peace
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (James in Cambridge)
Mon Jan 17 20:13:40 2000
Message-Id: <20000118011133.42604.qmail@hotmail.com>
From: "James in Cambridge" <tompaine@hotmail.com>
To: artmacom@micron.net, karens@MIT.EDU
Cc: jlewey@brandeis.edu, peace2@MIT.EDU
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:11:33 PST
Mime-Version: 1.0
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So it's a "list..." Whoever's in charge, please remove me from
the list. It's not what I expected.
Thanks. cheers James
>From: "James in Cambridge" <tompaine@hotmail.com>
>To: artmacom@micron.net, karens@MIT.EDU
>CC: jlewey@brandeis.edu, peace2@MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: WTO movement and peace
>Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:57:33 PST
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>From tompaine@hotmail.com Mon Jan 17 17:04:30 2000
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>
>
>I'm not sure how I got this email message?
>Can you/anyone explain?
>And btw: Who -- or what -- is the "Macomber" family, anyway?
>Some sort of industrial group?
>
> jw
>
>
>>From: The Macomber Family <artmacom@micron.net>
>>Reply-To: artmacom@micron.net
>>To: Karen Sachs <karens@MIT.EDU>
>>CC: jennifer lewey <jlewey@brandeis.edu>, peace2@MIT.EDU
>>Subject: Re: WTO movement and peace
>>Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 06:41:14 -0700
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>>From artmacom@micron.net Mon Jan 17 05:47:00 2000
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>>References: <200001141705.MAA27606@m56-129-21.mit.edu>
>>
>>Karen, it is clear that you have no knowledge of economics, but instead of
>>holding
>>that against you, I would like to give you some simple reading. One book
>>you would
>>enjoy is the "Road to Serfdom", by F.A. Hayek and another, I can't
>>remember
>>the
>>author now, is called "The Incredible Bread Machine."
>>
>>Both of these books echo the basics of economics, not from the
>>government's
>>view or
>>some rich, white boy - as you so fondly call us - no matter how "Black or
>>Hispanic
>>or Asian" my true experience may be, but they outline the actual goings-on
>>of folks
>>who are trying to better their own lives. So, they are ground-level
>>texts,
>>easy to
>>read and fun too, regardless of someone's alleged race (as seen from the
>>outside...).
>>
>>It is interesting to me that the people of the less-developed countries
>>(economically speaking, that is...) appear to want to advance economically
>>but
>>don't have the financial wherewithal to jump right in at the level of the
>>average
>>American, i.e., with all the worker protections, OSHA saftey regs, and
>>minimum
>>wages etc that we can afford today. From my limited perspective, it would
>>appear
>>that the protestors in Seattle wanted to stop third world development
>>unless they
>>could force development to happen according to some quite unrealistic and
>>costly
>>methods. I think the bottom line of the protests is that the protestors
>>are
>>saying, "You can't have it unless you do it our way," which is incredibly
>>imperialistic to me. Talk about cultural hegemony!
>>
>>Now, I understand that the traditional Left in America believe that "there
>>is
>>enough money and resources to go around", but there is no simple way to
>>accomplish
>>this allocation unless you do it at the point of a gun, like Mao, who
>>killed
>>millions to get the economic structure just the way he wanted it - and
>>China is
>>still trying to figure out how to remove itself from his visions with some
>>sembalance of "face." Besides, it should be clear by now, unless you
>>missed the
>>past one hundred years, that the peaceful exercise of private property
>>rights is
>>the best way to guarantee rising economic standards of living (and health
>>too!) and
>>when private property is blocked, then living standards go down. I could
>>cite
>>Russia as a start, with their losing ideas of collectivism, or go directly
>>to Cuba,
>>which is still a relative backwater even after decades of subsidies from
>>Russia, or
>>China, North Korea, or many others who frown on private property and
>>liberty for
>>their citizens. Also, for environmental degradation, try Eastern Europe,
>>China,
>>sub-Saharan Africa, or others areas where capitalism has been shunned for
>>more
>>"enlightened" philosophies wherein the government alleges to know the best
>>way to
>>manage natural resources - even tho' they have nothing to lose when they
>>trash the
>>place!!
>>
>>You know, the third world WANTS capitalism, because they see it works.
>>Now, as a
>>codicil, I must say that I am not supporting WTO here, in fact, they are
>>merely a
>>governmental club, just as unionists are, in that they are protectionists
>>of their
>>interests - and want to make that into law, instead of allowing free
>>people
>>to
>>trade freely, they want trade agreements, which end up dictating how,
>>when,
>>where,
>>at what price to trade. In this I agree with you, that they are a club
>>against the
>>little guy.
>>
>>-Art
>>
>>BTW, Sinclair and Zin are both very radical Leftists with a 1930's vision
>>of
>>economic equality, Sinclair having been there and Zin being more a
>>creature
>>of the
>>Sixties, ideologically, that is. If you want to find out economies really
>>work, at
>>the human level, better to read the two books I recommended above, they
>>are
>>more
>>free, but not completely free, of the ideological language and more to the
>>point of
>>what real people do when they get up in the morning to handle their
>>choices.
>>--------------------------------
>>
>>Karen Sachs wrote:
>>
>> > hi jennifer-
>> >
>> > i have no knowledge of economics, but it is clear to me that the
>>problem
>>with
>> > the wto is NOT that it attmepts globalization. it does not. it
>>attempts to
>> > structure world trade in such a way that would best serve huge
>>corporations,
>> > and "best serve" for them translates into no concern for worker's or
>> > childern's rights, no concern for the environment.
>> >
>> > this is why their agreements had to be made behind closed doors.
>> >
>> > i see it as american rich boys saying hey, why shouldn't we hook up not
>>only
>> > with each other, but with all the other rich boys in the world- then
>>we'll
>> > make even more millions.
>> >
>> > thw wto agreements have a "profit first" philosophy (obviously, since
>>it's
>> > structured by people serving these huge corporations), and so they
>>crush
>>human
>> > and environmental rights.
>> >
>> > a different wto that adresses world trade while also addressing
>>humanitary
>> > issues could be a trully wonderful and unifying thing, a true attempt
>>at
>> > globalization.
>> >
>> > out of seattle comes a slightly different (though related) issue- one
>>of
>> > centrallization of power and the regard for citizen's rights in
>>america.
>> at
>> > the meeting last night, the man sitting stage left (whose name i
>>missed),
>> > refering to the "disappearance" of one of the speakers, said something
>>to the
>> > effect of: in another country, this man's disappearance would have been
>>for
>> > good.
>> >
>> > how strongly we hold to the notion of our country being inherently
>>different
>> > from the others! after witnessing unprovoked officers of the law
>>brutillizing
>> > unprotected people, officers who will never be brought to justice,
>>people who
>> > may suffer permanent damage... can we still believe that in our country
>>human
>> > rights are somehow protected?
>> >
>> > if people are arrested and beaten in the jails, and all that interests
>>the
>> > government is the pr, how far away are we from "disappearances"?
>> >
>> > wake up and smell the stench of the government. as long as the masses
>>don't
>> > know, they do what they choose.
>> >
>> > and where's the media in all of this? busy watching a few people break
>> > windows.
>> >
>> > i recently read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle", describing the horrors
>>of
>> > industrial giants' complete disregard for anything but profit, and the
>> > horrible resulting squalor of the workers' lives. one hundred years
>>later, we
>> > feel that real progress has been made. meanwhile the industrial giants
>>are
>> > there, working hard for a great leap backwards.
>> >
>> > on this optimistic note, i highly recommend to you howard zin's "a
>>people's
>> > history of the US" and "you can't stay neutral on a moving train", also
>>by zin.
>> >
>> > as long as people care and are willing to sacrifice, i believe things
>>can
>> > change in the right direction.
>> >
>> > hats off to the three who came and spoke to us last night, and to all
>>the
>> > thousands who were with them.
>> >
>> > karen
>>
>
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