[822] in UA Senate
Slighlty Less Radical Idea on Dining
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Michael E Plasmeier)
Sat Oct 16 12:31:55 2010
Resent-From: ua-senate@MIT.EDU
From: Michael E Plasmeier <theplaz@MIT.EDU>
To: ec-discuss <ec-discuss@mit.edu>, Andy Wu <andywu@mit.edu>,
Vrajesh Y Modi
<vrajesh@mit.edu>, Samantha G Wyman <swyman@mit.edu>,
"Nils Molina
(nilsmolina@gmail.com)" <nilsmolina@gmail.com>,
ua-exec <ua-exec@mit.edu>, "baker-forum@mit.edu" <baker-forum@mit.edu>,
"Tom Gearty" <tgearty@mit.edu>, cfs <cfs@mit.edu>,
ua-senate <ua-senate@mit.edu>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 12:29:37 -0400
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Sorry for one more email.
I've had this plan proposed to me by David Lawrence (dlaw). It's a slight =
modification - but I think it is better for a choice point of view. I just=
don't know if the cost works out. (Apologies in advanced to David if I mis=
represent his plan)
Each student would sign up for a dining plan (or none at all) they desire:
*Hot Breakfast, Dinner $3,800/year (the HDAG proposal)
*Grab and Go Breakfast, Dinner $3,600/year (estimating numbers based on wha=
t I heard from HDAG members)
*Dinner $1,800/year (similar to what Baker, Simmons, next, McCormick have n=
ow, but at the fiscally sustainable price)
*No Dining Plan (the current level students have in EC, Senior House, MacGr=
eggor, etc) See below for not choosing a plan and then paying cash
HDAG would decide which house dining service was offered where. Again the =
decision would try to minimize the total number on students who would have =
to move to be happy with their dining plan (BUT THEY DON'T NEED TO ACTUALLY=
MOVE AND THEY DON'T NEED TO GET THE PLAN THEIR HOUSE OFFERS; KEEP READING!=
The algorithm just tries to offer their desired plan in their current hom=
e.) It would also minimize cost by minimizing the locations in which servi=
ce would be offered to about match population (ie 300 people want breakfast=
, one dorm). What would be offered where would be announced.
You would be signed up for your desired dining plan, no matter where you li=
ve. You would have the choice of moving to the dorm which has a dining hal=
l at your desired dining level or staying right where you are. In any even=
t, you have selected your meal plan. Let's say I am a Baker resident who w=
anted dinner only. But the algorithm said that it would be move minimizing=
to have Baker be the breakfast dorm. I could stay in Baker and only pay f=
or and only get the dinner. Meanwhile any student who wanted breakfast, wo=
uld be signed up for the breakfast plan at Baker (and another dorm if deman=
d is there). They could decide to try to move into Baker or stay where the=
y are and just eat breakfast and dinner in Baker (or wherever else those me=
als are offered) as part of the meal plan they selected.
Living choices and meal plan choices would be totally separate. On first g=
lance, that seems suboptimal. - Especially in the administrator's eyes, I'=
m guessing, who do connect living community with dining community. - But, =
if I understand correctly, that is what all of the critics of the plan say =
that is what they want.
Another item which needs to be ironed out is how to allow people who don't =
live in a dorm with house dining to visit the current dorms. The administra=
tion had said before that they would want to make it fiscally difficult to =
opt out of the plan and then cherry pick what days to visit at the cash pri=
ce. I don't know how they plan on jacking up the price of $8 breakfast any =
higher..... Of course the dining halls make incremental revenue from visito=
rs. However, if the visitors cherry pick the days they want to visit, while=
avoiding paying the fixed cost behind the operation that does not balance =
out to fiscally sustainable.
The flaw is the cost of running such a fancy operation. Currently dinner a=
t Baker "costs" about $12. This is currently paid $3-4 of the HDM fee, $3-=
4 at the cash register, and $3-4 in subsidy. Not many people would pay $12=
cash to eat dinner at Baker - what a meal currently costs. The only way t=
o lower that cost is to spread it over more people by encourage more people=
to attend. Since most of the costs are fixed, we want to jam as many peop=
le into Baker as possible. $12 cash which would be the discretionary price=
without the subsidy will not do that. In fact less people would buy at $1=
2, forcing them to raise the prices, rinse, repeat, death spiral. The hous=
e dining locations are just not competitive at complete discretionary. By =
that logic, they should be closed. But you will have trouble finding a Bak=
er resident who wants dining to close. That is the challenge. You need t=
o pay for the service you want.
Anyway, I'm not convinced that this plan will get enough people to sign up =
at the price that the plan costs. Everyone in Baker wants the subsidized pr=
ice we have now. But if the subsidy is going away - we will need to pay mo=
re. Period. With the current $500/student subsidy we have been getting hou=
se dining "on the cheap" below the cost of its operation. Everyone likes a =
subsidy and does not want it to disappear. But if MIT needs to get rid of i=
t, we need to add $500 to the current plan's House Dining Membership to mak=
e it sustainable. But do students want to pay $1,100 for nothing? Now with=
a pre-paid plan at least you are getting something for your up-front $1,10=
0 (and you pay ~ $600 more to include the actual meals all you can eat- a b=
it more than what students spend now) - and it would incentive people to vi=
sit as often as possible - lowering per meal cost for everyone. The more p=
eople who eat there, the more you spread the cost around, the lower the cos=
t per meal per person will be. Spreading the cost over students who don't w=
ant the dining level (hot breakfast, for example) is what the admin wants n=
ow, and I find that deeply unfair. And at least David's plan and my plan m=
inimize cost by only adding enough service that is demanded - not the plush=
one size fits all monster HDAG published.
You simply cannot just have the dining hall there and buy $5 meals 3 nights=
a week. That does not add up. At that rate they need to close. If you w=
ant the option of house dining, you need to pay more. Period. And you can=
either pay ahead of time or a very high $12 per meal cost. Neither option=
is good; Baker students, at least, want house dining. No one would likely=
do the $12 per meal cost, so you are left with some sort of pre-paid plan.=
If you want the option to be available, you need to pay the cost. You ca=
nnot do this without some sort of plan. [I should point out that at least =
in all of this you are not paying for services you do not want - which is e=
xactly what the admin wants us to do under HDAG. I wrote a 5 page opinion=
against http://wiki.theplaz.com/File:Dining_Letter_10-14-2010.docx] Minimi=
ze cost by only offering service people want. Under David's plan you can c=
hoose your dining plan and you can choose your living group separately. Bu=
t if you want house dining, only a prepaid plan will work.
Plus, could someone please tell me if either my plan or David's plan is not=
optimal - then what is all fucking world is! Something that gives student=
s what they demand and where the costs are minimized and directed at the pe=
ople who want that service level. Something where the costs of the service=
s student want are reasonable.
Lastly, remember that if you are a student in a dorm without a dining hall,=
and you do not want a dining hall, and you never plan on visiting House Di=
ning - nothing will change under my plan or David's.
Respectfully,
Michael Plasmeier
Baker House
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry for one mo=
re email.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>I’ve had this plan proposed to me by David Lawrence (dla=
w). It’s a slight modification – but I think it is better=
for a choice point of view. I just don’t know if the cost work=
s out. (Apologies in advanced to David if I misrepresent his plan)<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Each s=
tudent would sign up for a dining plan (or none at all) they desire:<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>*Hot Breakfast, Dinner $3,800/year (the HDAG p=
roposal)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>*Grab and Go Breakfast, Dinner =
$3,600/year (estimating numbers based on what I heard from HDAG members)<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>*Dinner $1,800/year (similar to what Baker=
, Simmons, next, McCormick have now, but at the fiscally sustainable price)=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>*No Dining Plan (the current level stud=
ents have in EC, Senior House, MacGreggor, etc) See below for not cho=
osing a plan and then paying cash<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>HDAG would decide which house dining se=
rvice was offered where. Again the decision would try to minimize the=
total number on students who would have to move to be happy with their din=
ing plan (BUT THEY DON’T NEED TO ACTUALLY MOVE AND THEY DON’T N=
EED TO GET THE PLAN THEIR HOUSE OFFERS; KEEP READING! The algorithm j=
ust tries to offer their desired plan in their current home.) It woul=
d also minimize cost by minimizing the locations in which service would be =
offered to about match population (ie 300 people want breakfast, one dorm).=
What would be offered where would be announced. <o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>You would be sign=
ed up for your desired dining plan, no matter where you live. You wou=
ld have the choice of moving to the dorm which has a dining hall at your de=
sired dining level or staying right where you are. In any event, you =
have selected your meal plan. Let’s say I am a Baker resident w=
ho wanted dinner only. But the algorithm said that it would be move m=
inimizing to have Baker be the breakfast dorm. I could stay in Baker =
and only pay for and only get the dinner. Meanwhile any student who w=
anted breakfast, would be signed up for the breakfast plan at Baker (and an=
other dorm if demand is there). They could decide to try to move into=
Baker or stay where they are and just eat breakfast and dinner in Baker (o=
r wherever else those meals are offered) as part of the meal plan they sele=
cted.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>Living choices and meal plan choices would be totally separate.&nbs=
p; On first glance, that seems suboptimal. - Especially in the admini=
strator’s eyes, I’m guessing, who do connect living community w=
ith dining community. - But, if I understand correctly, that is what =
all of the critics of the plan say that is what they want.<o:p></o:p></p><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Another item w=
hich needs to be ironed out is how to allow people who don't live in a dorm=
with house dining to visit the current dorms. The administration had said =
before that they would want to make it fiscally difficult to opt out of the=
plan and then cherry pick what days to visit at the cash price. I don't kn=
ow how they plan on jacking up the price of $8 breakfast any higher….=
. Of course the dining halls make incremental revenue from visitors. Howeve=
r, if the visitors cherry pick the days they want to visit, while avoiding =
paying the fixed cost behind the operation that does not balance out to fis=
cally sustainable. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal>The flaw is the cost of running such a fancy operatio=
n. Currently dinner at Baker “costs” about $12. Thi=
s is currently paid $3-4 of the HDM fee, $3-4 at the cash register, and $3-=
4 in subsidy. Not many people would pay $12 cash to eat dinner at Bak=
er – what a meal currently costs. The only way to lower that co=
st is to spread it over more people by encourage more people to attend.&nbs=
p; Since most of the costs are fixed, we want to jam as many people into Ba=
ker as possible. $12 cash which would be the discretionary price with=
out the subsidy will not do that. In fact less people would buy at $1=
2, forcing them to raise the prices, rinse, repeat, death spiral. The=
house dining locations are just not competitive at complete discretionary.=
By that logic, they should be closed. But you will have troubl=
e finding a Baker resident who wants dining to close. That is t=
he challenge. You need to pay for the service you want.<o:p></o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, I&#=
8217;m not convinced that this plan will get enough people to sign up at th=
e price that the plan costs. Everyone in Baker wants the subsidized price w=
e have now. But if the subsidy is going away – we will need to =
pay more. Period. With the current $500/student subsidy we have been =
getting house dining "on the cheap" below the cost of its operati=
on. Everyone likes a subsidy and does not want it to disappear. But if MIT =
needs to get rid of it, we need to add $500 to the current plan's House Din=
ing Membership to make it sustainable. But do students want to pay $1,100 f=
or nothing? Now with a pre-paid plan at least you are getting somethi=
ng for your up-front $1,100 (and you pay ~ $600 more to include the actual =
meals all you can eat– a bit more than what students spend now) ̵=
1; and it would incentive people to visit as often as possible – lowe=
ring per meal cost for everyone. The more people who eat there, the m=
ore you spread the cost around, the lower the cost per meal per person will=
be. Spreading the cost over students who don't want the dining level (hot =
breakfast, for example) is what the admin wants now, and I find that deeply=
unfair. And at least David’s plan and my plan minimize cost by=
only adding enough service that is demanded – not the plush one size=
fits all monster HDAG published.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>You simply cannot just have the dining =
hall there and buy $5 meals 3 nights a week. That does not add up.&nb=
sp; At that rate they need to close. If you want the option of house =
dining, you need to pay more. Period. And you can either pay ah=
ead of time or a very high $12 per meal cost. Neither option is good;=
Baker students, at least, want house dining. No one would likely do =
the $12 per meal cost, so you are left with some sort of pre-paid plan.&nbs=
p; If you want the option to be available, you need to pay the cost. =
You cannot do this without some sort of plan. [I should point out tha=
t at least in all of this you are not paying for services you do not want &=
#8211; which is exactly what the admin wants us to do under HDAG. &nb=
sp;I wrote a 5 page opinion against <a href=3D"http://wiki.theplaz.com/File=
:Dining_Letter_10-14-2010.docx">http://wiki.theplaz.com/File:Dining_Letter_=
10-14-2010.docx</a>] Minimize cost by only offering service people want. &n=
bsp;Under David’s plan you can choose your dining plan and you can ch=
oose your living group separately. But if you want house dining, only=
a prepaid plan will work.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Plus, could someone please tell me if either m=
y plan or David’s plan is not optimal – then what is all fuckin=
g world is! Something that gives students what they demand and where =
the costs are minimized and directed at the people who want that service le=
vel. Something where the costs of the services student want are reaso=
nable.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal>Lastly, remember that if you are a student in a dorm without a din=
ing hall, and you do not want a dining hall, and you never plan on visiting=
House Dining – nothing will change under my plan or David’s.<o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>Respectfully, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Michael Plasmeier<o:p></=
o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Baker House<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=
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