[170] in UA Senate
Re: 41UAS2.3: Bill to Authorize the Treasurer to Reallocate Money to
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Paul Baranay)
Tue Oct 20 02:17:16 2009
In-Reply-To: <4ADD54DD.7010903@mit.edu>
From: Paul Baranay <pbaranay@MIT.EDU>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:16:48 -0400
To: Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu>
Cc: Ted Hilk <thilk@mit.edu>, UA Senate <ua-senate@mit.edu>
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On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I guess at this point the bill is technically no longer mine, so I hope
> that next week Paul will permit me to propose a series of amendments in
> rapid succession.
That sounds fairly reasonable; I'd probably prefer if the amendments are
broken up into self-contained logical chunks.
Also, Tim and I are working on making it easier to see proposed changes to
legislation on the screen -- sorry if there was confusion with that.
Senators, in the future I would encourage you to physically/electronically
write down amendments you want to make, so that you can just read them from
your paper/screen at the appropriate time.
Best,
Paul
>
>
>> Ted
>>
>> P.S. Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry if Maggie got two copies of
>> this.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <maggied@mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>> To address Alex's second point: I think it would be useful to see how
>>> much
>>> money a committee actually spent *along with* what they were allocated.=
I
>>> don't think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as =
we
>>> would still like to overallocate slightly on line items.
>>>
>>> -Maggie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexandra Jordan <amjordan@mit.edu
>>> >wrote:
>>>
>>> Response to Paul:
>>>>
>>>> I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented=
,
>>>> or
>>>> that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted
>>>> money
>>>> for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the
>>>> reallocation of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committ=
ee
>>>> Chairs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to
>>>> formally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee
>>>> budgets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation
>>>> in
>>>> place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a
>>>> precedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to a=
sk
>>>> for
>>>> increased allocations. As I said before, Senate usually relies on
>>>> precedent
>>>> when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficu=
lt
>>>> budget approval for many committees.
>>>>
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...
>>>>
>>>>> Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not
>>>>> possible or not desirable. Committees may think a project is a good
>>>>> idea
>>>>> but they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea
>>>>> should
>>>>> be implemented until they have tried. Committee's can make mistakes
>>>>> about
>>>>> what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they
>>>>> are
>>>>> budgeted for so far in advance. If a committee cannot fulfill their
>>>>> obligation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line.
>>>>> In my
>>>>> mind there are not separate issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. The
>>>>> committee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% su=
re
>>>>> they
>>>>> wont need it. Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it
>>>>> is
>>>>> always possible to ask for more money from discretionary. I don't
>>>>> think
>>>>> this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill=
.
>>>>>
>>>>> The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees
>>>>> budget mid semester. If you are afraid of the committee being
>>>>> overruled by
>>>>> the committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously
>>>>> (2/3,
>>>>> whatever) approve of the reallocation of funds. I however, think you
>>>>> are
>>>>> more concerned with the power in the treasurer. Remember, the Senate
>>>>> still
>>>>> has ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his
>>>>> decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to rene=
w
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ted Hilk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA
>>>>>> budget to the pool of funds that
>>>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next
>>>>>> funding period;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides
>>>>>> that this decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be
>>>>>> reversed? Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds"
>>>>>> rather
>>>>>> than directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before t=
he
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> is actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an
>>>>>> option? If
>>>>>> not, why not?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or
>>>>>> other officer in charge of the
>>>>>> budget area losing said funds;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which
>>>>>> specific
>>>>>> positions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? I
>>>>>> feel
>>>>>> that the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be
>>>>>> informed of each such reallocation;
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> Senate"? While understanding the importance of delegation, I believ=
e
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisions=
.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to t=
he
>>>>>> principle of this bill. I agree that leftover money from our
>>>>>> operations
>>>>>> should go to student groups. I just want to make sure that Senate
>>>>>> exercises
>>>>>> caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to
>>>>>> meet this
>>>>>> aim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>> Ted Hilk
>>>>>> EC Senator
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:
>>>>>> adehnert@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since we postponed this a week...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no
>>>>>> guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I
>>>>>> encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alex Dehnert wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wrote a bill which is available at
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/moving-money.pdf.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bill authorizes the treasurer to:
>>>>>> * reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that
>>>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the
>>>>>> next funding period; and
>>>>>> * Requires that such reallocations be approved by the
>>>>>> committee chair losing said funds; and
>>>>>> * That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be
>>>>>> informed of each such reallocation; and
>>>>>> * That such authorization shall expire at the end of the
>>>>>> 2009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would be
>>>>>> awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so
>>>>>> that Senate can be short without being much less effective.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________
>>>> Alexandra Jordan
>>>>
>>>> MIT 2011
>>>> Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science
>>>> Political Science
>>>>
>>>> amjordan@mit.edu
>>>> 916.813.7740
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 20, 2009 at 2:12 AM, Alex Dehnert <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:adehnert@mit.edu">adehnert@mit.edu</a=
>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div class=3D"im"><snip></div>
<br>
I guess at this point the bill is technically no longer mine, so I hope tha=
t next week Paul will permit me to propose a series of amendments in rapid =
succession.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>That sounds fairly reasonable; =
I'd probably prefer if the amendments are broken up into self-contained=
logical chunks.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Also, Tim and I are working on making it easier to see =
proposed changes to legislation on the screen -- sorry if there was confusi=
on with that.</div><div><br></div><div>Senators, in the future I would enco=
urage you to physically/electronically write down amendments you want to ma=
ke, so that you can just read them from your paper/screen at the appropriat=
e time.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Paul</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex;"><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Ted<br>
<br>
P.S. =A0Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry if Maggie got two copi=
es of this.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <<a href=3D"mailto:maggi=
ed@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">maggied@mit.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
To address Alex's second point: I think it would be useful to see how m=
uch<br>
money a committee actually spent *along with* what they were allocated. I<b=
r>
don't think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as =
we<br>
would still like to overallocate slightly on line items.<br>
<br>
-Maggie<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexandra Jordan <<a href=3D"mailto:am=
jordan@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a>>wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Response to Paul:<br>
<br>
I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented,=
or<br>
that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted money<b=
r>
for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the<br>
reallocation of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committe=
e<br>
Chairs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to<=
br>
formally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.<br>
<br>
I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee<br>
budgets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation =
in<br>
place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a<b=
r>
precedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to ask fo=
r<br>
increased allocations. =A0As I said before, Senate usually relies on preced=
ent<br>
when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficult<br=
>
budget approval for many committees.<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not<br>
possible or not desirable. =A0Committees may think a project is a good idea=
<br>
but they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea should<=
br>
be implemented until they have tried. =A0Committee's can make mistakes =
about<br>
what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they are<br=
>
budgeted for so far in advance. =A0If a committee cannot fulfill their<br>
obligation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line. =A0In =
my<br>
mind there are not separate issues.<br>
<br>
Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. =A0The<br>
committee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% sure the=
y<br>
wont need it. =A0Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it is<=
br>
always possible to ask for more money from discretionary. =A0I don't th=
ink<br>
this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill.<br>
<br>
The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees<br>
budget mid semester. =A0If you are afraid of the committee being overruled =
by<br>
the committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously (2/3,<br=
>
whatever) approve of the reallocation of funds. =A0I however, think you are=
<br>
more concerned with the power in the treasurer. =A0Remember, the Senate sti=
ll<br>
has ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his decision.=
<br>
<br>
Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to renew<br>
it.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ted Hilk wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=A0That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA<br>
=A0budget to the pool of funds that<br>
=A0the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next<br>
=A0funding period;<br>
<br>
<br>
Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides<br>
that this decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be<br>
reversed? =A0Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds&quo=
t; rather<br>
than directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before the mone=
y<br>
is actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an opt=
ion? =A0If<br>
not, why not?<br>
<br>
=A0That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or<br>
=A0other officer in charge of the<br>
=A0budget area losing said funds;<br>
<br>
<br>
Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which specific<br=
>
positions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? =A0I feel=
<br>
that the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.<br>
<br>
=A0That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be<br>
=A0informed of each such reallocation;<br>
<br>
<br>
Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of t=
he<br>
Senate"? =A0While understanding the importance of delegation, I believ=
e that<br>
timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisions.<br>
<br>
Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to the<=
br>
principle of this bill. =A0I agree that leftover money from our operations<=
br>
should go to student groups. =A0I just want to make sure that Senate exerci=
ses<br>
caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to meet thi=
s<br>
aim.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Ted Hilk<br>
EC Senator<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <<a href=3D"mailto:adehner=
t@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a><mailto:<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:adehnert@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a>&=
gt;> wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0Since we postponed this a week...<br>
<br>
=A0If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no<br>
=A0guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.<br>
<br>
=A0I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I<br>
=A0encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.<br>
<br>
=A0~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0Alex Dehnert wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0I wrote a bill which is available at<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/moving-money.p=
df" target=3D"_blank">http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/mov=
ing-money.pdf</a>.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0The bill authorizes the treasurer to:<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0next funding period; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* Requires that such reallocations be approved by the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0committee chair losing said funds; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0informed of each such reallocation; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0* That such authorization shall expire at the end of the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A02009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would b=
e<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0that Senate can be short without being much less effective.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
__________________________________<br>
Alexandra Jordan<br>
<br>
MIT 2011<br>
Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science<br>
Political Science<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:amjordan@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a><=
br>
916.813.7740<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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