[167] in UA Senate
Re: 41UAS2.3: Bill to Authorize the Treasurer to Reallocate Money to
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Ted Hilk)
Mon Oct 19 22:37:58 2009
In-Reply-To: <345fee000910191928h2c09edb6ifcbe25a4591e9c2e@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 22:37:51 -0400
From: Ted Hilk <thilk@MIT.EDU>
To: Maggie Delano <maggied@mit.edu>
Cc: Alexandra Jordan <amjordan@mit.edu>, Paul Youchak <youchakp@mit.edu>,
Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu>, UA Senate <ua-senate@mit.edu>
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Agreed -- when planning budgets in subsequent years, it is important to kno=
w
what the original line item was, in addition to the reallocated one.
Otherwise, the bill risks deceiving later Senate members.
The bill should include specific language stipulating that the original lin=
e
item remain on record in the budget for that year. If the bill's purpose i=
s
to simply recycle leftover money (which I wholly support), rather than
forcing committees to progressively decrease their spending (which I
emphatically do not, at least not on such a broad level), then I see no
reason why such language should not be included. Why is it not?
Ted
P.S. Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry if Maggie got two copies of this=
.
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <maggied@mit.edu> wrote:
> To address Alex's second point: I think it would be useful to see how muc=
h
> money a committee actually spent *along with* what they were allocated. I
> don't think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as we
> would still like to overallocate slightly on line items.
>
> -Maggie
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexandra Jordan <amjordan@mit.edu>wrot=
e:
>
>> Response to Paul:
>>
>> I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented, =
or
>> that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted mone=
y
>> for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the
>> reallocation of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committee
>> Chairs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to
>> formally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.
>>
>> I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee
>> budgets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation i=
n
>> place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a
>> precedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to ask=
for
>> increased allocations. As I said before, Senate usually relies on prece=
dent
>> when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficult
>> budget approval for many committees.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:
>>
>> I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...
>>>
>>> Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not
>>> possible or not desirable. Committees may think a project is a good id=
ea
>>> but they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea sho=
uld
>>> be implemented until they have tried. Committee's can make mistakes ab=
out
>>> what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they ar=
e
>>> budgeted for so far in advance. If a committee cannot fulfill their
>>> obligation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line. I=
n my
>>> mind there are not separate issues.
>>>
>>> Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. The
>>> committee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% sure=
they
>>> wont need it. Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it i=
s
>>> always possible to ask for more money from discretionary. I don't thin=
k
>>> this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill.
>>>
>>> The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees
>>> budget mid semester. If you are afraid of the committee being overrule=
d by
>>> the committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously (2/3=
,
>>> whatever) approve of the reallocation of funds. I however, think you a=
re
>>> more concerned with the power in the treasurer. Remember, the Senate s=
till
>>> has ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his decis=
ion.
>>>
>>> Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to renew
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ted Hilk wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA
>>>> budget to the pool of funds that
>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next
>>>> funding period;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides
>>>> that this decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be
>>>> reversed? Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds" rath=
er
>>>> than directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before the=
money
>>>> is actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an option=
? If
>>>> not, why not?
>>>>
>>>> That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or
>>>> other officer in charge of the
>>>> budget area losing said funds;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which specif=
ic
>>>> positions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? I f=
eel
>>>> that the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.
>>>>
>>>> That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be
>>>> informed of each such reallocation;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of t=
he
>>>> Senate"? While understanding the importance of delegation, I believe =
that
>>>> timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisions.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to the
>>>> principle of this bill. I agree that leftover money from our operatio=
ns
>>>> should go to student groups. I just want to make sure that Senate exe=
rcises
>>>> caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to mee=
t this
>>>> aim.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> Ted Hilk
>>>> EC Senator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <adehnert@mit.edu<mailto=
:
>>>> adehnert@mit.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Since we postponed this a week...
>>>>
>>>> If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no
>>>> guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.
>>>>
>>>> I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I
>>>> encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.
>>>>
>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alex Dehnert wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wrote a bill which is available at
>>>>
>>>> http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/moving-money.pdf.
>>>>
>>>> The bill authorizes the treasurer to:
>>>> * reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that
>>>> the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the
>>>> next funding period; and
>>>> * Requires that such reallocations be approved by the
>>>> committee chair losing said funds; and
>>>> * That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be
>>>> informed of each such reallocation; and
>>>> * That such authorization shall expire at the end of the
>>>> 2009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would be
>>>> awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so
>>>> that Senate can be short without being much less effective.
>>>>
>>>> ~~Alex
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>> __________________________________
>> Alexandra Jordan
>>
>> MIT 2011
>> Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science
>> Political Science
>>
>> amjordan@mit.edu
>> 916.813.7740
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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Agreed -- when planning budgets in subsequent years, it is important to
know what the original line item was, in addition to the reallocated
one.=A0 Otherwise, the bill risks deceiving later Senate members.<br><br>Th=
e
bill should include specific language stipulating that the original
line item remain on record in the budget for that year.=A0 If the bill'=
s
purpose is to simply recycle leftover money (which I wholly support),
rather than forcing committees to progressively decrease their spending
(which I emphatically do not, at least not on such a broad level), then
I see no reason why such language should not be included.=A0 Why is it
not?<br><font color=3D"#888888">
<br>Ted</font><br><br>P.S.=A0 Meant to hit 'reply to all' -- sorry =
if Maggie got two copies of this.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
Oct 19, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Maggie Delano <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"m=
ailto:maggied@mit.edu">maggied@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">To address Alex&#=
39;s second point: I think it would be useful to see how much money a commi=
ttee actually spent <i>along with</i> what they were allocated. I don't=
think this will explicitly set a precedent for lower budgets, as we would =
still like to overallocate slightly on line items.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">
<br clear=3D"all">-Maggie</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 10:25 PM, Alexan=
dra Jordan <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:amjordan@mit.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p=
t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Response to Paul:<br>
<br>
I agree that committees could find that a project can't be implemented,=
or that they no longer want to implement it, but since Senate budgeted mon=
ey for said project, Senate should be informed and able to approve the real=
location of these funds. I don't want to take the right of Committee Ch=
airs to use their discretion on projects, but rather I don't want to fo=
rmally exclude Senate from deciding to change project funding.<br>
<br>
I'm not worried about the Treasurer unilaterally changing committee bud=
gets mid-semester. I'm worried about putting a piece of legislation in =
place that practically guarantees that next year's chairs will have a p=
recedent of lower budgets and will thus have to work much harder to ask for=
increased allocations. =A0As I said before, Senate usually relies on prece=
dent when approving allocations, so this would almost ensure a more difficu=
lt budget approval for many committees.<br>
<br>
Alex<div><div></div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
On Oct 19, 2009, at 10:17 PM, Paul Youchak wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I am responding to both Alex and Ted here...<br>
<br>
Committees may fund for a project and later find out is is either not possi=
ble or not desirable. =A0Committees may think a project is a good idea but =
they will not really know, for whatever reason, that their idea should be i=
mplemented until they have tried. =A0Committee's can make mistakes abou=
t what they want to do in the upcoming semester, especially since they are =
budgeted for so far in advance. =A0If a committee cannot fulfill their obli=
gation for the project then it is acceptable to remove the line. =A0In my m=
ind there are not separate issues.<br>
<br>
Having the reallocation of money be reversible makes no sense. =A0The commi=
ttee leader should not release the money unless they are 100% sure they won=
t need it. =A0Secondly, if they find they have changed their mind it is alw=
ays possible to ask for more money from discretionary. =A0I don't think=
this will ever happen, so its not a very strong objection to the bill.<br>
<br>
The treasurer does by no means have the right to reduce a committees budget=
mid semester. =A0If you are afraid of the committee being overruled by the=
committee chair then we can say the committee must unanimously (2/3, whate=
ver) approve of the reallocation of funds. =A0I however, think you are more=
concerned with the power in the treasurer. =A0Remember, the Senate still h=
as ultimate control because we do now have the right reverse his decision.<=
br>
<br>
Note, this bill will only last for this year unless we decide to renew it.<=
br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Ted Hilk wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
=A0 That the Treasurer may reallocate funds from one part of the UA<br>
=A0 budget to the pool of funds that<br>
=A0 the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the next<br>
=A0 funding period;<br>
<br>
<br>
Regarding this pool: if the applicable committee chair later decides that t=
his decision was made in error, is there any way for it to be reversed? =A0=
Given that the money is allocated to a "pool of funds" rather tha=
n directly to the groups (hence implying some time delay before the money i=
s actually out of UA's control), shouldn't such reversal be an opti=
on? =A0If not, why not?<br>
<br>
=A0 That such reallocations must be approved by the committee chair or<br>
=A0 other officer in charge of the<br>
=A0 budget area losing said funds;<br>
<br>
<br>
Would it be possible to clarify, in the text of the bill, which specific po=
sitions are allowed to do this for which specific budget areas? =A0I feel t=
hat the existing wording is a bit vague, given the powers involved.<br>
<br>
=A0 That the Senate, Finance Board, and [a]affected Chair must be<br>
=A0 informed of each such reallocation;<br>
<br>
<br>
Is there a reason why this line does not say "by the next meeting of t=
he Senate"? =A0While understanding the importance of delegation, I bel=
ieve that timely information is necessary to allow for review of the decisi=
ons.<br>
<br>
Finally, I would like to note that I'm not by any means opposed to the =
principle of this bill. =A0I agree that leftover money from our operations =
should go to student groups. =A0I just want to make sure that Senate exerci=
ses caution in doing so, and more time for discussion was necessary to meet=
this aim.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Ted Hilk<br>
EC Senator<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Oct 19, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Alex Dehnert <<a href=3D"mailto:adehner=
t@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:adehnert@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">adehnert@mit.edu</a>>> wrote:=
<br>
<br>
=A0 Since we postponed this a week...<br>
<br>
=A0 If you have questions: Please ask them explicitly. Otherwise, no<br>
=A0 guarantee that you'll get an answer... I'm not psychic.<br>
<br>
=A0 I'll probably put together some more information shortly, but I<br=
>
=A0 encourage some discussion to happen here besides that.<br>
<br>
=A0 ~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
=A0 Alex Dehnert wrote:<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 I wrote a bill which is available at<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/moving-money/m=
oving-money.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://web.mit.edu/ua/senate/UAS41/2/mov=
ing-money/moving-money.pdf</a>.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 The bill authorizes the treasurer to:<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 * reallocate funds from a committee to the pool of funds that<=
br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 the Finance Board helps allocate to student groups for the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 next funding period; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 * Requires that such reallocations be approved by the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 committee chair losing said funds; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 * That the Senate, Finance Board, and affected Chair must be<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0 informed of each such reallocation; and<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 * That such authorization shall expire at the end of the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 2009=962010 fiscal year unless renewed by Senate.<br>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 I'm happy to answer any questions that you have. It would =
be<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 awesome if we can get most questions out *before* Senate, so<b=
r>
=A0 =A0 =A0 that Senate can be short without being much less effective.<br=
>
<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 ~~Alex<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br></div></div><div>
__________________________________<br>
Alexandra Jordan<br>
<br>
MIT 2011<br>
Earth, Atmospheric, and Planetary Science<br>
Political Science<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:amjordan@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">amjordan@mit.edu</a><=
br></div>
916.813.7740<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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