[1297] in UA Senate
Re: Laptops
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Daniel Hawkins)
Sun Apr 24 23:59:18 2011
Reply-To: hwkns@MIT.EDU
In-Reply-To: <60826A506BCDE447B39C85C1496EAB7403E2ADFB1C@EXPO7.exchange.mit.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 23:59:14 -0400
From: Daniel Hawkins <hwkns@MIT.EDU>
To: Michael E Plasmeier <theplaz@mit.edu>
Cc: Betsy Riley <rileyb@mit.edu>, Jonte Craighead <jontec@mit.edu>,
Jessica Chen <jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com>,
Geoffrey G Thomas <geofft@mit.edu>,
Karan Takhar <kstakhar4691@gmail.com>,
Timothy E Robertson <tim_r@mit.edu>,
"ua-senate@mit.edu" <ua-senate@mit.edu>
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Seeing how difficult this has become, how strongly people feel about it, I'=
m
going to drop it. It was never a mandate from the committee, it was just a
preference, so I really don't want to make a huge deal about it. *I will
make sure the committee members know that they are on the record, and we ca=
n
go about business as usual tomorrow night.* If any of you are interested i=
n
discussing the issues in a more private setting, let me know and we'll put
you on the MIT-Online student study group.
-hwkns
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 11:26 PM, Michael E Plasmeier <theplaz@mit.edu>wrot=
e:
> I disagree. I am glad that the Online Study Group has decided to give us
> an update of what they are working on. I realized that they don=92t want
> their ideas stolen and publicized nationally before MIT has made a
> decision. I feel that responsible members of Senate should have the
> confidence to work with confidential information.
>
>
>
> This is the only way we get input into these things. Requiring everythin=
g
> to be open will get the UA nowhere.
>
>
>
> -Plaz
>
>
>
> *From:* Betsy Riley [mailto:rileyb@MIT.EDU]
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 24, 2011 11:21 PM
> *To:* Daniel D Hawkins
> *Cc:* Jonte Craighead; Jessica Chen; Geoffrey G Thomas; Karan Takhar;
> Michael E Plasmeier; Timothy E Robertson; ua-senate@mit.edu
> *Subject:* Re: Laptops
>
>
>
> It has been really helpful in the past to have records of what our guest
> speakers say. Although I think that Hawkins's idea of starting on-the-rec=
ord
> is better than having the entire discussion be off-the-record, it makes u=
s
> look uncoordinated and inconsistent if Jont=E9 has already agreed to allo=
wing
> the Online Study Group guests to have the discussion off-the-record (if t=
his
> isn't the case, Jont=E9, please correct me). I think that it would be ide=
al if
> Jont=E9 contacted the Online Study Group guests asap and informed them th=
at
> Senate does not actually want the discussion to be off-the-record, as thi=
s
> is not in line with current precedent, we have found it very beneficial t=
o
> have on-the-record comments in the past, etc.
>
>
>
> I'm curious what anyone thinks Senate will gain from knowing off-the-reco=
rd
> information if we can't quote it later. I don't think that Senate has don=
e
> much, if any, strategy this year or passed many, if any, bills of the sor=
t
> that would benefit from knowing confidential information. On the other ha=
nd,
> Senate, exec, and in fact any undergrad would benefit from having documen=
ted
> statements from the administration. Therefore I think that having any
> on-the-record information from the Online Study Group is more useful than
> hearing unquotable, off-the-record information, even if it there is more =
of
> it.
>
>
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2011/4/24 Daniel Hawkins <hwkns@mit.edu>
>
> Also, importantly, on-the-record or off-the-record doesn't have to apply =
to
> the entire meeting. Perhaps it would be best to start everything on the
> record and remind our guests that they are free to request off-the-record
> discussion at any point, and that we will decide whether it is appropriat=
e.
> Thoughts on that?
>
>
>
> -hwkns
>
>
>
>
>
> 2011/4/24 Daniel Hawkins <hwkns@mit.edu>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Sorry I just saw this thread. I wanted to clear some things up, as the
> student rep to the MIT-Online Faculty Study Group. I'm glad people are
> taking interest in this, and as Jonte said, this issue of transparency vs=
.
> effectiveness is extremely important.
>
>
>
> Geoffrey you are right to question this, and to point out how it's caused
> trouble in the past. And I know that being personally involved inhibits =
my
> ability to objectively evaluate the committee's intentions (I think Mike =
and
> Noah experienced this on BRDC). But if you look at who is chairing this
> committee (Dick Yue, who also chaired the committee that created OCW abou=
t a
> decade ago, and in general is a great guy who believes MIT is becoming to=
o
> corporate these days), and the process so far (they created a separate,
> parallel student study group so it wouldn't be influenced by the faculty
> group's discussions, and made me the interface between the groups), and t=
he
> fact that we didn't invite them to Senate, they asked if they could come
> talk to us, I don't think you'll conclude that this is the next BRDC.
>
>
>
> Michael hit the nail on the head, as far as the committee's motivations f=
or
> wanting this meeting to be off the record. I'm certain they won't mind i=
f
> people take notes or talk to their constituents. In fact, they probably
> hope that you will do that much. Their goal is to get as much feedback a=
s
> they can. But these are sensitive topics. And there's nothing to stop T=
he
> Tech from reporting, "MIT is planning to do X, which will revolutionize
> education in the US and the world!" (when, in reality, no recommendations
> have been made to the Provost yet, and publicizing our best ideas at this
> stage might allow other schools to implement them before we do). To be
> clear, I'm not saying that I expect The Tech would do this, I'm saying th=
ere
> is nothing stopping them from doing it, and that is mostly what the
> committee is afraid of.
>
>
>
> Karan, you are correct; if the discussion is on the record and The Tech h=
as
> a reporter in the room, the members of the committee will be much more
> political (as they are speaking not just to students but to any newspaper=
in
> the world that wishes to quote them), and our discussion will not be as
> productive. But I'm sure we'll still be able to voice our opinions, and =
if
> this is what you guys want, I'm willing to prepare some background info f=
or
> you so we can discuss things without putting the committee in an awkward
> position.
>
>
>
> -hwkns
>
>
>
> 2011/4/24 Jont=E9 Craighead <jontec@mit.edu>
>
> Hi, everyone:
>
> I am glad to see that we are finally utilizing the mailing list for the
> purpose it was intended.
>
> Where is the balance between knowledge and accountability? How does
> information or input gained off-the-record compare to that which is
> on-the-record? These are questions that strike at heart of our role as a
> representative body, and they deserve debate.
>
> I hope to work with our guests to determine a format that works best for =
us
> in our role as elected representatives as well as for the Study Group.
> Please keep the input coming because I cannot have this discussion withou=
t
> knowing where Senate stands on this issue.
>
> My office hours are from 8:00pm-10:00pm tonight in the UA Office, and I
> would be happy to discuss this topic with anyone interested.
>
> Thanks,
> Jont=E9 Craighead
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Jessica Chen <jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com=
>
> wrote:
>
> Hi hi
>
> With the Online Group, I agree with what was said above, that they need t=
o
> explain to our constituents why we can't disclose any information to them=
.
> Also Jonte, I understand that some people using laptops is as a distracti=
on
> and they completely sign out of Senate but it's a pain to take hand-writt=
en
> notes especially since it means we have to retype them up later. It's eas=
ier
> and prettier to just have it typed and indented and such already. (at lea=
st
> my perspective :) please and thank you!)
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> ~Jessica Chen
> MIT 2014
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> It's not. That way you can say "We asked them to come to Senate and prese=
nt
> and they didn't / lied to us / concealed information", instead of "We ask=
ed
> them to come to Senate and present and they did, and we didn't do anythin=
g
> with the information because we thought we weren't supposed to". The latt=
er
> puts the responsibility of failure of communication with students on Sena=
te
> instead of the body presenting to Senate.
>
> While BRDC still failed in many miserable ways, things started changing f=
or
> the better after 40 UAS 6.4, which said that student reps to BRDC must be
> able to report back to the government they represent. It's not so much ab=
out
> the immediate effect of the meeting as the environment and attitude aroun=
d
> it.
>
> Again, I'm not saying MIT-Online will do this, it's just a thing that I'v=
e
> run into in the past that has caused problems, and it's worth Senate not
> blindly accepting this.
>
>
>
> --
> Geoffrey Thomas
> geofft@mit.edu
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Karan Takhar wrote:
>
> There is also the possibility that we keep this on the record and
> subsequently get none or very little relevant information pertaining to t=
he
> activities of the study group. I am not advocating for off the record by
> any
> means, just pointing out that on the record with no information shared is=
a
> similar outcome to off the record without being able to act on any
> information.
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Geoffrey Thomas <geofft@mit.edu> wrote:
> Sure, quite possible. But you should ask this explicitly. If
> they mean that the information is public to the MIT community, I
> would like senators to be taking notes.
>
> --
> Geoffrey Thomas
> geofft@mit.edu
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Michael E Plasmeier wrote:
>
>
> It seems to me that =93off the record=94 means that they do
> not want this to
> appear in the Boston Globe, NYT, etc before they are ready
> to announce
> something. Going before a body as large as Senate means
> that this is not
> highly classified. It seems that they are trying to get
> MIT community
> feedback without having this leak to the outside world.
>
>
>
> I could be incorrect, so I agree with Tim=92s suggestion to
> ask the study
> group to explain what they are trying to protect.
>
>
>
> -Michael
>
>
>
> From: timorob@gmail.com [mailto:timorob@gmail.com] On
> Behalf Of Timothy
> Robertson
> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 1:13 PM
> To: Geoffrey G Thomas
> Cc: Jonte Craighead; ua-senate@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: Laptops
>
>
>
> I do not believe it is reasonable for us to remain off the
> record. I am not
> opposed to closed discussions, but I believe the Study
> Group should be
> accountable to what they bring to the UA body.
> Additionally, if we stay off
> the record, I would like the Study Group to provide, at
> the minimum, a
> public explanation of this request.
>
> On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Geoffrey Thomas
> <geofft@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> What does "off the record" mean? As a constituennt, can I
> ask my senator
> what happened and expect them to be able to reply in good
> conscience?
>
> I have bad memories of Blue Ribbon insisting its meetings
> were off the
> record, and preventng me as a Dormcon member from having
> any idea of what
> was going on (until the leaks and 40 UAS 6.4 and all that
> fun stuff).
> MIT-Online is certainly more preliminary than BRDC was at
> that stage, but
> also way more important. Is there some summary of the
> discussion they're
> willing to approve? Can senators take persnal notes not on
> laptops?
>
> This is what affects a body's ability to be
> representative. Whether you punt
> on your computers past the Speaker's bedtime is just a
> question of time
> management competence and respect, not representation.
>
> --
> Geoffrey Thomas
> geofft@mit.edu
>
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, William Steadman wrote:
>
> If every representative were to make motions to: close
> discussion,
> postpone, etc whenever they felt it was appropriate then
> you don't have
> a meeting, you have 30 arguing about procedure.
>
> I don't walk into Senate trying to gauge the progress of a
> discussion
> because that is not my job. My job as Chairman of Space
> Planning is to
> provide appropriate info in that area. Gauging the
> progress of a
> discussion is in fact the Speaker's job.
>
> I recommend the Speaker move to end discussion or even
> better call for a
> motion from the assembly whenever he thinks discussion is
> not useful.
> There is a reason he controls the length of debate time.
> Yet despite the
> length of all of our meetings it has only been invoked
> once this year.
>
> On Sun, 2011-04-24 at 04:16 -0400, Jont=E9 Craighead (UA
> Speaker) wrote:
>
> Hi, guys:
>
> This is meant to be a notice for Monday's meeting.
>
> tl;dr: No laptops during the guest speaker and no laptops
> after
> 11:00pm.
>
> The MIT-Online Faculty Study Group has asked that the
> entire session
> at Monday's meeting take place off the record. Because of
> this, and
> the fact that this group will be our guest, laptops must
> not be open.
>
> Furthermore, I am going to request that laptops also be
> closed during
> any business that takes place after 11:00pm. If you have
> noticed
> anything this year, it's that, usually, fewer than half of
> you are
> paying attention to the discussion at once past about this
> time. If
> the discussion on the floor is not interesting or useful,
> you should
> do something about it (i.e. move to close discussion,
> postpone, etc.).
> This is your Senate, you should own it. Otherwise, we run
> into
> situations where a small number of participants are the
> only ones
> driving the discussions (and effectively acting as the
> only student
> representatives).
>
> Instituting this rule is not fun, but I feel it's
> necessary to keep
> people engaged, or at the very least, ensure that our last
> three
> meetings aren't also our longest.
>
> I would be happy to answer any questions here, but if you
> have
> comments or want to start a discussion, please move this
> e-mail to
> ua-senate@.
>
> Thanks,
> Jont=E9 Craighead
>
> Speaker of the Senate
> MIT Undergraduate Association
> Course 1C: Class of 2013
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Tim Robertson II
> MIT 2011
> Mechanical Engineering
> UA Senate Office Hours:
> EC-B515 Sunday 5-8pm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Seeing how difficult this has become, how strongly people feel about it, I&=
#39;m going to drop it. =A0It was never a mandate from the committee, it wa=
s just a preference, so I really don't want to make a huge deal about i=
t. =A0<b>I will make sure the committee members know that they are on the r=
ecord, and we can go about business as usual tomorrow night.</b> =A0If any =
of you are interested in discussing the issues in a more private setting, l=
et me know and we'll put you on the MIT-Online student study group.<div=
>
<br></div><div>-hwkns<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 24, 201=
1 at 11:26 PM, Michael E Plasmeier <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:=
theplaz@mit.edu">theplaz@mit.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex;">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">I disagree.=A0 I am glad=
that the Online Study Group has decided to give us an update of what they =
are working on.=A0 I realized that they don=92t want their ideas stolen and=
publicized nationally before MIT has made a decision.=A0 I feel that respo=
nsible members of Senate should have the confidence to work with confidenti=
al information.=A0 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">=A0</=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F49=
7D">This is the only way we get input into these things.=A0 Requiring every=
thing to be open will get the UA nowhere.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">=A0</=
span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F49=
7D">-Plaz </span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt=
;color:#1F497D">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"> Betsy Riley [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ril=
eyb@MIT.EDU" target=3D"_blank">rileyb@MIT.EDU</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday,=
April 24, 2011 11:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Daniel D Hawkins<br><b>Cc:</b> Jonte Craighead; Jessica Chen; Ge=
offrey G Thomas; Karan Takhar; Michael E Plasmeier; Timothy E Robertson; <a=
href=3D"mailto:ua-senate@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">ua-senate@mit.edu</a><=
br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Laptops</span></p><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It has been really helpfu=
l in the past to have records of what our guest speakers say. Although I th=
ink that Hawkins's idea of starting on-the-record is better than having=
the entire discussion be off-the-record, it makes us look uncoordinated an=
d inconsistent if Jont=E9 has already agreed to allowing the Online Study G=
roup guests to have the discussion off-the-record (if this isn't the ca=
se, Jont=E9, please correct me). I think that it would be ideal if Jont=E9 =
contacted the Online Study Group guests asap and informed them that Senate =
does not actually want the discussion to be off-the-record, as this is not =
in line with current precedent, we have found it very beneficial to have on=
-the-record comments in the past, etc.</p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'=
m curious what anyone thinks Senate will gain from knowing off-the-record i=
nformation if we can't quote it later. I don't think that Senate ha=
s done much, if any, strategy this year or passed many, if any, bills of th=
e sort that would benefit from knowing confidential information. On the oth=
er hand, Senate, exec, and in fact any undergrad would benefit from having =
documented statements from the administration. Therefore I think that havin=
g any on-the-record information from the Online Study Group is more useful =
than hearing unquotable, off-the-record information, even if it there is mo=
re of it.</p>
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Betsy =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0</p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">2011/4/24 Daniel Hawkins <<a href=3D"mailto:=
hwkns@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">hwkns@mit.edu</a>></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">Also, importantly, on-the-record or off-the-record doesn't have t=
o apply to the entire meeting. =A0Perhaps it would be best to start everyth=
ing on the record and remind our guests that they are free to request off-t=
he-record discussion at any point, and that we will decide whether it is ap=
propriate. =A0Thoughts on that?</p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">-hwkns=
</p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0=
</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">2011/4/24 Daniel Hawkins <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:hwkns@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">hwkns@mit.edu</a>></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sorry I just saw this thread. =A0I wanted to cl=
ear some things up, as the student rep to the MIT-Online Faculty Study Grou=
p. =A0I'm glad people are taking interest in this, and as Jonte said, t=
his issue of transparency vs. effectiveness is extremely important.</p>
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
Geoffrey you are right to question this, and to point out how it's caus=
ed trouble in the past. =A0And I know that being personally involved inhibi=
ts my ability to objectively evaluate the committee's intentions (I thi=
nk Mike and Noah experienced this on BRDC). =A0But if you look at who is ch=
airing this committee (Dick Yue, who also chaired the committee that create=
d OCW about a decade ago, and in general is a great guy who believes MIT is=
becoming too corporate these days), and the process so far (they created a=
separate, parallel student study group so it wouldn't be influenced by=
the faculty group's discussions, and made me the interface between the=
groups), and the fact that we didn't invite them to Senate, they asked=
if they could come talk to us, I don't think you'll conclude that =
this is the next BRDC.</p>
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
Michael hit the nail on the head, as far as the committee's motivations=
for wanting this meeting to be off the record. =A0I'm certain they won=
't mind if people take notes or talk to their constituents. =A0In fact,=
they probably hope that you will do that much. =A0Their goal is to get as =
much feedback as they can. =A0But these are sensitive topics. =A0And there&=
#39;s nothing to stop The Tech from reporting, "MIT is planning to do =
X, which will revolutionize education in the US and the world!" (when,=
in reality, no recommendations have been made to the Provost yet, and publ=
icizing our best ideas at this stage might allow other schools to implement=
them before we do). =A0To be clear, I'm not saying that I expect The T=
ech would do this, I'm saying there is nothing stopping them from doing=
it, and that is mostly what the committee is afraid of.</p>
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
Karan, you are correct; if the discussion is on the record and The Tech has=
a reporter in the room, the members of the committee will be much more pol=
itical (as they are speaking not just to students but to any newspaper in t=
he world that wishes to quote them), and our discussion will not be as prod=
uctive. =A0But I'm sure we'll still be able to voice our opinions, =
and if this is what you guys want, I'm willing to prepare some backgrou=
nd info for you so we can discuss things without putting the committee in a=
n awkward position.</p>
</div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
-hwkns</p></div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div><div><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal">2011/4/24 Jont=E9 Craighead <<a href=3D"mailto:=
jontec@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">jontec@mit.edu</a>></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi, everyone:<br><br>I am glad to see that we are fi=
nally utilizing the mailing list for the purpose it was intended.<br><br>Wh=
ere is the balance between knowledge and accountability? How does informati=
on or input gained off-the-record compare to that which is on-the-record? T=
hese are questions that strike at heart of our role as a representative bod=
y, and they deserve debate.<br>
<br>I hope to work with our guests to determine a format that works best fo=
r us in our role as elected representatives as well as for the Study Group.=
Please keep the input coming because I cannot have this discussion without=
knowing where Senate stands on this issue.<br>
<br>My office hours are from 8:00pm-10:00pm tonight in the UA Office, and I=
would be happy to discuss this topic with anyone interested.<br><br clear=
=3D"all">Thanks,<br><span style=3D"color:#888888">Jont=E9 Craighead</span><=
/p>
<div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=A0</p><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:37 PM, Jessica Chen <<=
a href=3D"mailto:jessicachen.dbhs@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jessicachen.=
dbhs@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi hi<br><br>With the Online Group, I agree with wha=
t was said above, that they need to explain to our constituents why we can&=
#39;t disclose any information to them. Also Jonte, I understand that some =
people using laptops is as a distraction and they completely sign out of Se=
nate but it's a pain to take hand-written notes especially since it mea=
ns we have to retype them up later. It's easier and prettier to just ha=
ve it typed and indented and such already. (at least my perspective :) plea=
se and thank you!)<br>
<br><br><br clear=3D"all">Sincerely,<br><span style=3D"color:#888888">~Jess=
ica Chen<br>MIT 2014</span></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"ma=
rgin-bottom:12.0pt"><br><br></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Apr 24,=
2011 at 1:28 PM, Geoffrey Thomas <<a href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" tar=
get=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It's not. That way you can say "We asked th=
em to come to Senate and present and they didn't / lied to us / conceal=
ed information", instead of "We asked them to come to Senate and =
present and they did, and we didn't do anything with the information be=
cause we thought we weren't supposed to". The latter puts the resp=
onsibility of failure of communication with students on Senate instead of t=
he body presenting to Senate.<br>
<br>While BRDC still failed in many miserable ways, things started changing=
for the better after 40 UAS 6.4, which said that student reps to BRDC must=
be able to report back to the government they represent. It's not so m=
uch about the immediate effect of the meeting as the environment and attitu=
de around it.<br>
<br>Again, I'm not saying MIT-Online will do this, it's just a thin=
g that I've run into in the past that has caused problems, and it's=
worth Senate not blindly accepting this.</p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br><br>-- <br>Geoffrey Thomas<br><a href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" target=
=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.edu</a></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Karan Takhar wrote:</p><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
=A0=A0 There is also the possibility that we keep this on the record and<br=
>subsequently get none or very little relevant information pertaining to th=
e<br>activities of the study group. I am not advocating for off the record =
by any<br>
means, just pointing out that on the record with no information shared is a=
<br>similar outcome to off the record without being able to act on any<br>i=
nformation.<br><br>On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:18 PM, Geoffrey Thomas <<a =
href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.edu</a>> wro=
te:<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0Sure, quite possible. But you should ask this explicitly. If<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0they mean that the information is public to the MIT community, I=
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0would like senators to be taking notes.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0--=
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Geoffrey Thomas<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.e=
du</a><br><br>On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Michael E Plasmeier wrote:<br><br><br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0It seems to me that =93off the record=94 means that they do<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0not want this to<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0appear in the Boston Globe, NYT, etc before they are ready<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0to announce<br>=A0 =A0 =A0something.=A0 Going before a body as l=
arge as Senate means<br>=A0 =A0 =A0that this is not<br>=A0 =A0 =A0highly cl=
assified. It seems that they are trying to get<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0MIT community<br>=A0 =A0 =A0feedback without having this leak to=
the outside world.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0I could be inco=
rrect, so I agree with Tim=92s suggestion to<br>=A0 =A0 =A0ask the study<br=
>=A0 =A0 =A0group to explain what they are trying to protect.<br>
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0-Michael<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0<br><br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0From: <a href=3D"mailto:timorob@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">tim=
orob@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:timorob@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">timorob@gmail.com</a>] On<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0Behalf Of Timothy<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Robertson<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Sent: Su=
nday, April 24, 2011 1:13 PM<br>=A0 =A0 =A0To: Geoffrey G Thomas<br>=A0 =A0=
=A0Cc: Jonte Craighead; <a href=3D"mailto:ua-senate@mit.edu" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ua-senate@mit.edu</a><br>
=A0 =A0 =A0Subject: Re: Laptops<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0I d=
o not believe it is reasonable for us to remain off the<br>=A0 =A0 =A0recor=
d. I am not<br>=A0 =A0 =A0opposed to closed discussions, but I believe the =
Study<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Group should be<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0accountable to what they bring to the UA body.<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Add=
itionally, if we stay off<br>=A0 =A0 =A0the record, I would like the Study =
Group to provide, at<br>=A0 =A0 =A0the minimum, a<br>=A0 =A0 =A0public expl=
anation of this request.<br>
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Geoffrey Thomas<br>=A0 =A0=
=A0<<a href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.edu<=
/a>> wrote:<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0What does "off the record" mean?=
As a constituennt, can I<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0ask my senator<br>=A0 =A0 =A0what happened and expect them to be=
able to reply in good<br>=A0 =A0 =A0conscience?<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0I have b=
ad memories of Blue Ribbon insisting its meetings<br>=A0 =A0 =A0were off th=
e<br>=A0 =A0 =A0record, and preventng me as a Dormcon member from having<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0any idea of what<br>=A0 =A0 =A0was going on (until the leaks and=
40 UAS 6.4 and all that<br>=A0 =A0 =A0fun stuff).<br>=A0 =A0 =A0MIT-Online=
is certainly more preliminary than BRDC was at<br>=A0 =A0 =A0that stage, b=
ut<br>=A0 =A0 =A0also way more important. Is there some summary of the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0discussion they're<br>=A0 =A0 =A0willing to approve? Can sen=
ators take persnal notes not on<br>=A0 =A0 =A0laptops?<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Th=
is is what affects a body's ability to be<br>=A0 =A0 =A0representative.=
Whether you punt<br>=A0 =A0 =A0on your computers past the Speaker's be=
dtime is just a<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0question of time<br>=A0 =A0 =A0management competence and respect=
, not representation.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0--<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Geoffrey Thomas<br=
>=A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:geofft@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">geofft@mit.=
edu</a><br><br><br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, William Steadman wro=
te:<br>
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0If every representative were to make motions to: close<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0discussion,<br>=A0 =A0 =A0postpone, etc whenever they felt it wa=
s appropriate then<br>=A0 =A0 =A0you don't have<br>=A0 =A0 =A0a meeting=
, you have 30 arguing about procedure.<br>
<br>=A0 =A0 =A0I don't walk into Senate trying to gauge the progress of=
a<br>=A0 =A0 =A0discussion<br>=A0 =A0 =A0because that is not my job. My jo=
b as Chairman of Space<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Planning is to<br>=A0 =A0 =A0provide a=
ppropriate info in that area. Gauging the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0progress of a<br>=A0 =A0 =A0discussion is in fact the Speaker=
9;s job.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0I recommend the Speaker move to end discussion o=
r even<br>=A0 =A0 =A0better call for a<br>=A0 =A0 =A0motion from the assemb=
ly whenever he thinks discussion is<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0not useful.<br>=A0 =A0 =A0There is a reason he controls the leng=
th of debate time.<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Yet despite the<br>=A0 =A0 =A0length of al=
l of our meetings it has only been invoked<br>=A0 =A0 =A0once this year.<br=
><br>=A0 =A0 =A0On Sun, 2011-04-24 at 04:16 -0400, Jont=E9 Craighead (UA<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0Speaker) wrote:<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Hi, guys:<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Th=
is is meant to be a notice for Monday's meeting.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0tl;d=
r: No laptops during the guest speaker and no laptops<br>=A0 =A0 =A0after<b=
r>=A0 =A0 =A011:00pm.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0The MIT-Online Faculty Study Group =
has asked that the<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0entire session<br>=A0 =A0 =A0at Monday's meeting take place =
off the record. Because of<br>=A0 =A0 =A0this, and<br>=A0 =A0 =A0the fact t=
hat this group will be our guest, laptops must<br>=A0 =A0 =A0not be open.<b=
r><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Furthermore, I am going to request that laptops also be<br=
>
=A0 =A0 =A0closed during<br>=A0 =A0 =A0any business that takes place after =
11:00pm. If you have<br>=A0 =A0 =A0noticed<br>=A0 =A0 =A0anything this year=
, it's that, usually, fewer than half of<br>=A0 =A0 =A0you are<br>=A0 =
=A0 =A0paying attention to the discussion at once past about this<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0time. If<br>=A0 =A0 =A0the discussion on the floor is not intere=
sting or useful,<br>=A0 =A0 =A0you should<br>=A0 =A0 =A0do something about =
it (i.e. move to close discussion,<br>=A0 =A0 =A0postpone, etc.).<br>=A0 =
=A0 =A0This is your Senate, you should own it. Otherwise, we run<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0into<br>=A0 =A0 =A0situations where a small number of participan=
ts are the<br>=A0 =A0 =A0only ones<br>=A0 =A0 =A0driving the discussions (a=
nd effectively acting as the<br>=A0 =A0 =A0only student<br>=A0 =A0 =A0repre=
sentatives).<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Instituting this rule is not fun, but I feel=
it's<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0necessary to keep<br>=A0 =A0 =A0people engaged, or at the very l=
east, ensure that our last<br>=A0 =A0 =A0three<br>=A0 =A0 =A0meetings aren&=
#39;t also our longest.<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0I would be happy to answer any qu=
estions here, but if you<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0have<br>=A0 =A0 =A0comments or want to start a discussion, pleas=
e move this<br>=A0 =A0 =A0e-mail to<br>=A0 =A0 =A0ua-senate@.<br><br>=A0 =
=A0 =A0Thanks,<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Jont=E9 Craighead<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0Speaker of=
the Senate<br>=A0 =A0 =A0MIT Undergraduate Association<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0Course 1C: Class of 2013<br><br>=A0 =A0 =A0=A0<br><br><br><br><b=
r>=A0 =A0 =A0--<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Tim Robertson II<br>=A0 =A0 =A0MIT 2011<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0Mechanical Engineering<br>=A0 =A0 =A0UA Senate Office Hours:<br>=
=A0 =A0 =A0EC-B515 Sunday 5-8pm<br><br><br><br></p>
</div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></div></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div=
></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p></div></div></div></div></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">
=A0</p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
--0016e6db2e401ba4dc04a1b63b32--
