[89305] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: AW: Italy orders ISPs to block sites
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Owen DeLong)
Tue Mar 7 08:32:31 2006
Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2006 05:31:27 -0800
From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
To: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net>, nanog@merit.edu
In-Reply-To: <8CB977D6-0652-43D8-9E5C-2C4ECCEDBFDF@ianai.net>
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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--On March 7, 2006 8:12:59 AM -0500 "Patrick W. Gilmore"=20
<patrick@ianai.net> wrote:
>
> On Mar 7, 2006, at 3:56 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>
>>> I understand, that from an American point of view this kind of
>>> restriction
>>> looks strange and is against your act of freedom, however here in
>>> Europe
>>> gambling is a state controlled business that supports the state
>>> economy
>>> and in most European countries gambling outside state controlled
>>> casinos
>>> is simply illegal and forbidden by law.
>>
>> Even in the US, this is true. Gambling in California is illegal
>> (except
>> indian casions, long story), because Nevada has a powerful lobby in
>> California.
>
> That's an interesting comment.
>
> The largest cardroom in the world is in California (Commerce Casino).
> And there are plenty of places to play poker.
>
> The difference is that California has decided (properly, IMHO) that
> poker is a game of _skill_, not chance. And there are other games you
> can play at these cardrooms, but you play them against other players,
> not the house. And most online gambling sites either allow poker or
> sports betting. I guess you could call sports begging "gambling", but
> there is skill involved there too.
>
> Not that things like "facts" matter to politicians, or even lawyers....
> :-)
>
Actually, it's not so much skill vs. luck, but, the fact that CA has
certain exceptions for "mutual benefits" betting which is a fancy
term for the house gets a fixed percentage no matter who wins. This
allows for card rooms and horse tracks.
>
>> I don't question the validity of the law. That's between the
>> Italians and
>> their government. I question the practicality of enforcing the law
>> because
>> the way the internet and the international economies work, it is
>> virtually
>> impossible to enforce this short of something like the great firewall
>> of China (which still allows SSH through for the most part, so...).
>
> Bringing this back to Operational Content <gasp>, this is the big point.
> I honestly do no believe you can stop people from getting to sites they
> want to see without stopping Internet access as a whole. Even the Great
> Firewall Of China is essentially swiss cheese to anyone who wants to get
> around it. Fear of "meat-space" punishment is probably more important
> than the technology used.
>
You'd be surprised how effective the GFOC can be. The Chinese government
doesn't hesitate to walk in and literally cut the power to a datacenter
if they so desire.
> Yes, most people use their ISP's recursive NS, but that's 'cause they're
> lazy. When it stops working, they'll use something else. Block
> $DEFAULT_PORT for filesharing, they'll find another. So unless you
> proxy 100% of the traffic (possible, but difficult), and watch for
> proxies outside your proxy (nearly impossible), people will get through.
>
Not even possible to proxy 100% of traffic unless you block all SSL and
prevent SSH.
> Seeing governments try to legislate around technology they do not
> understand is ... amusing. If they want to stop this activity, making a
> law regarding routers or servers is not the way to do it.
>
Certainly not the effective way to do it.
Owen
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