[37955] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: EMAIL != FTP
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Scott Francis)
Sat May 26 01:50:38 2001
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:35:39 -0700
From: Scott Francis <scott@virtualis.com>
To: Mitch Halmu <mitch@netside.net>
Cc: John Fraizer <nanog@Overkill.EnterZone.Net>,
Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>,
"'Steve Sobol'" <sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net>,
Shawn McMahon <smcmahon@eiv.com>, nanog@nanog.org
Message-ID: <20010525163539.R168@virtualis.com>
Mail-Followup-To: Scott Francis <scott@virtualis.com>,
Mitch Halmu <mitch@netside.net>,
John Fraizer <nanog@Overkill.EnterZone.Net>,
Roeland Meyer <rmeyer@mhsc.com>,
'Steve Sobol' <sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net>,
Shawn McMahon <smcmahon@eiv.com>, nanog@nanog.org
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1010525120751.2647G-100000@sunny.netside.net>; from mitch@netside.net on Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:49:56PM -0400
Errors-To: owner-nanog-outgoing@merit.edu
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On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:49:56PM -0400, Mitch Halmu exclaimed:
[John Frazier]
> > Have you thought about that before sending a large file via email to
> > someone? Many provides include your email spool in your quota. Beyond
> > that, there are TONS of free hosting providers out there so your arguem=
ent
> > there is moot.
>=20
> And many don't. Remember, it has to work for all.
NOTHING 'works for all'. Nothing. End of story. If you're going for 100%
functionality, you might as well give up now.
> > Huh? You're joking, right? Believe it or not Mitch, the rest of the
> > internet population isn't just sitting around sucking up oxygen from
> > brain-children like you. If they're competent enough to create a large
> > presentation, they're competent enough to upload it somewhere. They can
> > drag and drop with any number of FTP applications. Moot arguement.
>=20
> Ever tried to explain to Joe user what FTP is? DeeAnn Mikula answered=20
> that one to the point.
As many others have pointed out ... Joe User, if s/he knows how to use a ma=
il
client, almost certainly knows how to user a browser. Problem solved.
> > Only if they're running REALLY, REALLY old browsers or the server itself
> > is sending an incorrect mime-type for the .zip extension. Beyond that,
> > they can right-click on the link and do a "save-as" so, this one is moot
> > as well.
>=20
> Some still do. Just pointing out potential problems.
The fraction of people both 1) clueless enough to not understand how to cli=
ck
a link, or upload a file; and 2) running software so old as to not facilita=
te
this is almost nil. Besides the fact that those belonging to set (2) are mu=
ch
more likely to be clueful. I use a text-based email client and browse with
lynx frequently, but it's not because I don't know how to install newer
software or upload a file.
> > Please see "free hosting providers" above. MOOT.
> =20
> Well, for one, free stuff on the Internet is comatose.
> http://www.dotcomeon.com/free.html
http://www.geocities.com
http://www.tripod.com
http://www.xoom.com
http://clubs.yahoo.com
and the list goes on and on and on and on ... just look at the free porn si=
tes
sometimes. They pop up like mushrooms, almost always hosted on free accounts
that last for a month or so and then move elsewhere. There are more free
webhosts than one can list.
> Second, don't tell me that a user should be required to have both a
> paid account and a freebie just to be able to handle large files.
A user doesn't. If a user has an account they are paying for, and unable to
upload a file through either ignorance or restriction by their ISP, they ne=
ed
to get another account. Any ISP's front-line support should be able and
willing to give basic instructions to paying customers on how to utilize the
technology they're paying for.
> > OK. How is that any different that the time it takes you to send the f=
ile
> > to the SMTP server? MOOT!
>=20
> Some may compose a message off-line, and have it sent unattended with oth=
er
> unsent messages when they go online.
How is this different than uploading the file when you go online? Or compos=
ing
the message while offline, and when you send the message, uploading the fil=
e?
> > Ever hear of .htaccess? It's REALLY neat. If you think your file is s=
afe
> > from prying eyes in email, you've got more problems than not understand=
ing
> > basic authentication on a webserver though. You should stop argueing y=
our
> > invalid, moot points and spend that precious time reevaluating your
> > security policy.
>=20
> Joe user doesn't know about .htaccess, nor does he care. He just wants his
> document sent out like now! Joe doesn't see why he should jump through
> more hoops than his buddy on a competing service anyway.
I know this I'm fighting a losing battle, but there's a reason that FTP sta=
nds
for File Transfer Protocol. I'll stop replying now, and return to my corner=
to
be annoyed at the drop in the average clue level around the Net.
Just because we _can_ do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that doing=
so
is a good idea.
> Besides, you will now have to confirm that the intended party retrieved
> the document, then go back in and delete it.=20
What confirmation? How do you know the intended party retrieved your 10MB
email successfully? You get a reply, right? And you get a reply when they h=
ave
downloaded the file, too. And users need to learn not to leave huge temp fi=
les
lying around anyway. Deleting a file via FTP is hardly a technical challeng=
e,
even for the uninitiated.
> > No. That's what the uneducated newbie does. The regular user uploads =
it
> > to their http/ftp server and sends a link to the file via email.
>=20
> We do provide 10MB of personal web space with every account since 1995.
> Guess how many users even have web pages up? Many simply don't care.
Not having the motivation, knowledge or creativity required to build a webs=
ite,
and being unable to upload a file are two entirely different situations.
> > Please don't breed.
>=20
> Some other brave souls dared to disagree.
Everybody has the right to their own opinion. Even if it's wrong. :)
> John, we provide a service, and don't run a training camp. Most people
> wouldn't agree to the punishment you want to subject them to anyway.
If education is viewed as punishment, it's generally due to the experience
provided by the educator.
> --Mitch
> NetSide
--=20
Scott Francis scott@ [work:] v i r t u a l i s . c o m
Systems Analyst darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t
West Coast Network Ops GPG keyid 0xCB33CCA7
illum oportet crescere me autem minui
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