[35600] in North American Network Operators' Group
RE: Broken Internet? [OT]
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Karyn Ulriksen)
Tue Mar 13 20:39:06 2001
Message-ID: <0127E258EE29D3118A0F00609765B4487C93AF@dhcp-gateway.sitestream.net>
From: Karyn Ulriksen <kulriksen@publichost.com>
To: 'Mathew Butler' <mbutler@tonbu.com>,
'Roeland Meyer' <rmeyer@mhsc.com>,
'Patrick Greenwell' <patrick@cybernothing.org>,
"Steven M. Bellovin" <smb@research.att.com>
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:09:39 -0800
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Yeah. Just think of us as the "pork bellies" of the twenty first century.
K
-----Original Message-----
From: Mathew Butler [mailto:mbutler@tonbu.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:37 PM
To: 'Roeland Meyer'; 'Patrick Greenwell'; Steven M. Bellovin
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: RE: Broken Internet? [OT]
*ponders*
Is it possible that our technical solutions are at least contributorially
responsible for the economic slowdown? (Small businesses can't get
connected, so large numbers of high-money dotcoms get massive amounts of
funding, but few of them can make any money, so their debts skyrocket, and
the massive power shifts happen?)
Don't mind me, I'm just pondering.
-Mat
-----Original Message-----
From: Roeland Meyer [ mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com <mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com> ]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:53 PM
To: 'Patrick Greenwell'; Steven M. Bellovin
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Broken Internet?
> From: Patrick Greenwell [ mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org
<mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org> ]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:29 AM
> to change the fact that these alternative root server
> networks exist and
> that the Internet still works, mostly(as I'm sure you'd agree
> it's always a little broken.)
That is an understatement (a little broken). I have just been introduced to
one of those broken areas, the hard way.
Given:
1. Prefix filtering at /20.
2. Most small busineses limited to /24, by policy/procedure.
3. Multi-homing requirements for multi-office businesses (many SOHO's).
4. Impending business failure of many DSL ISPs.
5. Total lack of responsibile behavior among DSL access providers.
It is next to impossible for a small business to have reliable internet
connectivity without moving into a large co-lo. Even if they can afford the
multiple T1's, they can't get portable IP addresses that will be advertised
reliably. Many of them need, at most, a pair of /24's and ARIN, knowing
this, will not issue them portable blocks larger than /24 without severe
justification requirements.
Many of you might think that is okay, but what if their upstream dies off
(as recently happened to MHSC). In the current day and age, business stops
until they get reconnected. This disconnect is at minimum, 4-6 weeks, under
the best of circumstances. As one vendor recently pointed out in their
adverts, most businesses, down for more than 14 days, will never survive.
More importantly, such an outage flat-lines the revenue picture for that
entire fiscal quarter, for the unlucky victim.
What we have today is a manufactured dependence on a single upstream
provider and no way to multi-home. Even co-lo boils down to single-home
dependency.
Yes, there are a bunch of hacks to work around this problem. But, that is
exactly what they are ... hacks. They are not something I could build a
sustainable business around.
Any business needs:
1. to be able to change upstream providers without having to renumber.
2. to be able to change access providers without having to suffer
multi-month down-times.
3. to be able to have its net-block(s) visible regardless of which ISPs they
are currently using.
Currently the only ones that can do that are those that;
1. Are large enough to justify a /20 (begging the question of how they got
that large).
2. Can afford their own datacenter.
It looks like our technical solutions are raising unreasonable barriers to
entry for small businesses.
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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=880540723-13032001>Yeah.
Just think of us as the "pork bellies" of the twenty first
century.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=880540723-13032001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=880540723-13032001>K</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mathew Butler
[mailto:mbutler@tonbu.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:37
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Roeland Meyer'; 'Patrick Greenwell'; Steven M.
Bellovin<BR><B>Cc:</B> nanog@merit.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Broken Internet?
[OT]<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>*ponders*</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Is it possible that our technical solutions are at least
contributorially responsible for the economic slowdown? (Small
businesses can't get connected, so large numbers of high-money dotcoms get
massive amounts of funding, but few of them can make any money, so their debts
skyrocket, and the massive power shifts happen?)</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>Don't mind me, I'm just pondering.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-Mat</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>From:
Roeland Meyer [<A
href="mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com">mailto:rmeyer@mhsc.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:53 PM</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>To:
'Patrick Greenwell'; Steven M. Bellovin</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Cc:
nanog@merit.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Subject: Broken Internet?</FONT>
</P><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>> From: Patrick Greenwell [<A
href="mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org">mailto:patrick@cybernothing.org</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 11:29 AM</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>> to change the fact that these alternative root server
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>> networks exist and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>>
that the Internet still works, mostly(as I'm sure you'd agree </FONT><BR><FONT
size=2>> it's always a little broken.) </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>That is an understatement (a little broken). I have just been
introduced to</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>one of those broken areas, the hard
way.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Given:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>1. Prefix filtering at
/20.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>2. Most small busineses limited to /24, by
policy/procedure.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>3. Multi-homing requirements for
multi-office businesses (many SOHO's).</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>4. Impending
business failure of many DSL ISPs.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>5. Total lack of
responsibile behavior among DSL access providers.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>It is next to impossible for a small business to have reliable
internet</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>connectivity without moving into a large
co-lo. Even if they can afford the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>multiple T1's, they
can't get portable IP addresses that will be advertised</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>reliably. Many of them need, at most, a pair of /24's and ARIN,
knowing</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>this, will not issue them portable blocks
larger than /24 without severe</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>justification
requirements.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Many of you might think that is okay, but what if their
upstream dies off</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>(as recently happened to MHSC). In
the current day and age, business stops</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>until they get
reconnected. This disconnect is at minimum, 4-6 weeks, under</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>the best of circumstances. As one vendor recently pointed out in
their</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>adverts, most businesses, down for more than 14
days, will never survive.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>More importantly, such an
outage flat-lines the revenue picture for that</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>entire
fiscal quarter, for the unlucky victim.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>What we have today is a manufactured dependence on a single
upstream</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>provider and no way to multi-home. Even co-lo
boils down to single-home</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>dependency.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Yes, there are a bunch of hacks to work around this problem.
But, that is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>exactly what they are ... hacks. They are
not something I could build a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>sustainable business
around.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Any business needs:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>1. to be able to
change upstream providers without having to renumber.</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>2. to be able to change access providers without having to
suffer</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>multi-month down-times.</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=2>3. to be able to have its net-block(s) visible regardless of which ISPs
they</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>are currently using.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Currently the only ones that can do that are those
that;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>1. Are large enough to justify a /20 (begging
the question of how they got</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>that large).</FONT>
<BR><FONT size=2>2. Can afford their own datacenter.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>It looks like our technical solutions are raising unreasonable
barriers to</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>entry for small businesses.</FONT>
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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