[194252] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: EFF Call for sign-ons: ISPs, networking companies and engineers
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Mike Hammett)
Wed Mar 29 09:11:11 2017
X-Original-To: nanog@nanog.org
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:11:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net>
Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
In-Reply-To: <01FC2F16-B4D5-4238-AE9F-957E4C1A380D@ianai.net>
Errors-To: nanog-bounces@nanog.org
I know most of the people in the thread have been doing this a long time, t=
he others I just don't know anything about them.=20
FWIW: Glass has been running an ISP for 20 - 25 years, has given Congressio=
nal\FCC testimony, etc. He's not an industry slouch either, just with a dif=
ferent political standing.=20
Certainly independents need better marketing machines, but the past 10 - 15=
years, they've been beaten down pretty badly with the general public flock=
ing to the incumbents and the masochism that entails. As my ISP tries to gr=
ow, in the same conversation I've had a property manager complain about Com=
cast and then say they don't need me because they have Comcast. I know that=
's not a technical battle.=20
Heck, I've been trying to hire a sales\biz dev guy for the better part of t=
wo years. I never get anyone reasonable responding. One guy asked what B2B =
was. We need those anchor enterprise, government, MDU accounts in an area t=
o justify the expense and low ROI of single family homes.=20
-----=20
Mike Hammett=20
Intelligent Computing Solutions=20
Midwest Internet Exchange=20
The Brothers WISP=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net>=20
To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org>=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:58:57 AM=20
Subject: Re: EFF Call for sign-ons: ISPs, networking companies and engineer=
s opposed to FCC privacy repeal=20
Mike:=20
I know Mr. Glass thinks of me as a not knowledgeable network professional, =
but I hope you know I=E2=80=99ve been doing =E2=80=9CISP stuff=E2=80=9D for=
a couple decades. I know how to work the system. There really are not any =
other broadband providers in my area. Hell, LTE doesn=E2=80=99t even work w=
ell in my house, and I am less than a dozen miles from the center of Boston=
.=20
But more importantly, even if there were a second provider, how do you expe=
ct Joe & Mary User to find that provider if I cannot? (Not trying to be arr=
ogant, just saying I am more experience in this field than the average cons=
umer.)=20
Broadband competition in the US is a myth, at least for most people. At bes=
t, competition is the exception, not the rule. At worst, it=E2=80=99s a thi=
nly veiled monopoly. Hell, they brag about it being a duopoly where they ca=
n, as if that=E2=80=99s a great thing. Comcast=E2=80=99s chairman brags tha=
t Time Warner & Comcast do not compete in any cities.=20
--=20
TTFN,=20
patrick=20
> On Mar 29, 2017, at 6:35 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:=20
>=20
> Are there really no others or are the ones that are there just marketing =
themselves poorly? Any nearby you could convince to expand?=20
>=20
> Over my WISP's coverage, I have at least 13 WISP competitors, 7 broadband=
wireline and nearly that many enterprise fiber. I admit that may be except=
ional.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----=20
> Mike Hammett=20
> Intelligent Computing Solutions=20
>=20
> Midwest Internet Exchange=20
>=20
> The Brothers WISP=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
>=20
> From: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net>=20
> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org>=20
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 9:25:54 PM=20
> Subject: Re: EFF Call for sign-ons: ISPs, networking companies and engine=
ers opposed to FCC privacy repeal=20
>=20
> Thanks, I was a bit confused why you said it, which is apparently because=
I was confused. :-)=20
>=20
> I agree we need to do a better job educating users why this is important.=
=20
>=20
> And just so my opinion is clear, if there were a true market, I would not=
mind ISPs who did this (with proper notice). Unfortunately, over half of a=
ll households in the US have one or fewer choices for broadband providers. =
I am one of them. What do I do if my ISP wants to collect my data? VPN ever=
ything?=20
>=20
> --=20
> TTFN,=20
> patrick=20
>=20
>> On Mar 28, 2017, at 10:18 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:=20
>>=20
>> It was more a plea to educate the list on why this matters vs. doom and =
gloom with a little more gloom and a little less Carmack. Instead I got mor=
e of the sky is falling.=20
>>=20
>> Note that I don't intend to ever do this at my ISP, nor my IX.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> -----=20
>> Mike Hammett=20
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>=20
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentCo=
mputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-compu=
ting-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL>=20
>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>=20
>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/mi=
dwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>=20
>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>=20
>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/chan=
nel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>=20
>> From: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net <mailto:patrick@ianai.net>=
>=20
>> To: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 9:12:15 PM=20
>> Subject: Re: EFF Call for sign-ons: ISPs, networking companies and engin=
eers opposed to FCC privacy repeal=20
>>=20
>> Mike:=20
>>=20
>> My guess is you do not.=20
>>=20
>> Which is -precisely- why the users (proletariat?) need to find a way to =
stop you. Hence laws & regulations.=20
>>=20
>> Later in this thread you said =E2=80=9Cwe are done here=E2=80=9D. Would =
that you were so lucky.=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> TTFN,=20
>> patrick=20
>>=20
>>> On Mar 28, 2017, at 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nan=
og@ics-il.net>> wrote:=20
>>>=20
>>> Why am I supposed to care?=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----=20
>>> Mike Hammett=20
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions=20
>>>=20
>>> Midwest Internet Exchange=20
>>>=20
>>> The Brothers WISP=20
>>>=20
>>> ----- Original Message -----=20
>>>=20
>>> From: "Rich Kulawiec" <rsk@gsp.org <mailto:rsk@gsp.org>>=20
>>> To: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>=20
>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 4:45:25 PM=20
>>> Subject: Re: EFF Call for sign-ons: ISPs, networking companies and engi=
neers opposed to FCC privacy repeal=20
>>>=20
>>> On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 06:45:04PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:=20
>>>> The claim oft presented by people favoring this customer abuse is that=
=20
>>>> the sold data is anonymous. But it's been well-established that very=
=20
>>>> simple data aggregation techniques can develop signatures that reveal=
=20
>>>> the identity of people in anonymized data.=20
>>>=20
>>> This needs to be repeated loudly and often at every possible opportunit=
y.=20
>>> I've spent much of the past decade studying this issue and the most suc=
cinct=20
>>> way I can put it is that however good you (generic "you") think=20
>>> de-anonymization techniques are, you're wrong: they're way better than =
that.=20
>>> Billions, and I am not exaggerating even a little bit, have been spent=
=20
>>> on this problem, and they've been spent by smart people with essentiall=
y=20
>>> unlimited computational resources. And whaddaya know, they've succeeded=
.=20
>>>=20
>>> So if someone presents you a data corpus and says "this data is anonymi=
zed",=20
>>> the default response should be to mock them, because there is a very hi=
gh=20
>>> probability they're either (a) lying or (b) wrong.=20
>>>=20
>>> Incidentally, I'm also a signatory of the EFF document, since of course=
=20
>>> with nearly 40 years in the field I'm a mere clueless newbie and despit=
e=20
>>> ripping them a new one about once every other month, I'm clearly a tool=
=20
>>> of Google.=20
>>>=20
>>> ---rsk=20
>=20
