[139672] in North American Network Operators' Group
Re: 365x24x7 (sleep patterns)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Marshall Eubanks)
Fri Apr 15 13:41:42 2011
From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv>
In-Reply-To: <BLU158-w468A21714F89228FE35B5EF1AC0@phx.gbl>
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:41:26 -0400
To: Mark Green <ktm200exc@hotmail.com>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org
Errors-To: nanog-bounces+nanog.discuss=bloom-picayune.mit.edu@nanog.org
On Apr 15, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Mark Green wrote:
>=20
> Suggestion; once on the 'night shift' stay put for at least three =
months... Sleep patterns take time to adjust. Jumping between day and =
night shifts will burn out even the most motivated employee. =20
>=20
What we found was that we would find people who wanted to be on the =
night shift, and would NOT like to be changed, at all. Some people like =
night
work, or have family situations where it is ideal for them.
Regards
Marshall=20
> Mark Green
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> From: nanog-request@nanog.org
>> Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 39, Issue 46
>> To: nanog@nanog.org
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:52:19 +0000
>>=20
>> Send NANOG mailing list submissions to
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>>=20
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..."
>>=20
>>=20
>> Today's Topics:
>>=20
>> 1. 365x24x7 (harbor235)
>> 2. Re: New hijacks, and lots of them (Ronald F. Guilmette)
>> 3. Re: 365x24x7 (Peter Hicks)
>> 4. Re: 365x24x7 (Charles Mills)
>> 5. RE: 365x24x7 (Greg Moore)
>> 6. Re: 365x24x7 (Steve Clark)
>> 7. Re: 365x24x7 (Marshall Eubanks)
>> 8. Re: 365x24x7 (Alex Brooks)
>> 9. RE: 365x24x7 (Sanders, Randall K)
>> 10. Re: 365x24x7 (Tony Finch)
>> 11. Re: 365x24x7 (harbor235)
>> 12. Re: 365x24x7 (Paul Graydon)
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:14:05 -0400
>> From: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>
>> Subject: 365x24x7
>> To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <BANLkTimD9jYVzM_hv21y9LHzObR3RVG0YA@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=20
>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>> need
>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>> required
>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>=20
>> thoughts, experience?
>>=20
>> Mike
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:17:06 -0700
>> From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com>
>> Subject: Re: New hijacks, and lots of them=20
>> To: nanog@nanog.org
>> Message-ID: <2971.1302873426@tristatelogic.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>> In message <5824.1302780126@tristatelogic.com>, I wrote:
>>=20
>>> http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-1.txt
>>> http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-2.txt
>>=20
>> My apologies to anyone and everyone who tried to get at these files.
>> It seems that my provider may perhaps have recently developed some
>> rather odd ideas about packet filtering for static broadband lines.
>> Until I can get the problem worked out, the following alternative =
URLs
>> ought to do instead:
>>=20
>> ftp://ftp.47-usc-230c2.org/pub/20110414-snowshoe-1.txt
>> ftp://ftp.47-usc-230c2.org/pub/20110414-snowshoe-2.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:17:48 +0100
>> From: Peter Hicks <peter.hicks@poggs.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>
>> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <066F653E-C0F8-4026-9FE0-3A8899378D0C@poggs.co.uk>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 15 Apr 2011, at 14:14, harbor235 wrote:
>>=20
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams =
to cover the
>>> required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule =
rotation?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Although more geared up for on-call, =
http://blog.hinterlands.org/2010/07/running-an-oncall-rota/ is a very =
useful resource.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Peter
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:25:02 -0400
>> From: Charles Mills <w3yni1@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>, NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <BANLkTint8hnfenSQZBHoS3x4hAS_P78JNA@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=20
>> I've had it done in places where I work where you'll have 3 rotations
>> working 12 hour shifts.
>>=20
>> In a 2 week pay period they get their 80 hours in a blend 36 one week
>> and 44 the next. It gives some nice consecutive days off time which
>> also doubles as a retention tool for some employees. You might have
>> to get creative to have all the days work out but it can be done.
>>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:14 AM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need
>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>> required
>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>>=20
>>> thoughts, experience?
>>>=20
>>> Mike
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> Charles L. Mills
>> Email: w3yni1@gmail.com
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> Need server hosting, DR or colocation services?? See me!
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:37:54 -0400
>> From: Greg Moore <mooregr@greenms.com>
>> Subject: RE: 365x24x7
>> To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>, NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <mailman.2806.1302882739.16627.nanog@nanog.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>>=20
>> When I did this years ago I found 5 was really a minimum so that I =
could cover weekends and then had extra coverage as needed during the =
week.
>>=20
>> I did find it was good to swap out the graveyard shift every 6 months =
or so. =20
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: harbor235
>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:14 AM
>> To: NANOG list
>> Subject: 365x24x7
>>=20
>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>> need
>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>> required
>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>=20
>> thoughts, experience?
>>=20
>> Mike
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:48:42 -0400
>> From: Steve Clark <sclark@netwolves.com>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: Charles Mills <w3yni1@gmail.com>
>> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <4DA84CBA.5030409@netwolves.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed
>>=20
>> On 04/15/2011 09:25 AM, Charles Mills wrote:
>>> I've had it done in places where I work where you'll have 3 =
rotations
>>> working 12 hour shifts.
>>>=20
>>> In a 2 week pay period they get their 80 hours in a blend 36 one =
week
>>> and 44 the next. It gives some nice consecutive days off time which
>>> also doubles as a retention tool for some employees. You might have
>>> to get creative to have all the days work out but it can be done.
>>>=20
>>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:14 AM, harbor235<harbor235@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>>> need
>>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>>> required
>>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>>>=20
>>>> thoughts, experience?
>>>>=20
>>>> Mike
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> I worked once in a production plant. They had 4 crews a,b,c,d and =
worked 6 days on 2 off. It was rotating shifts. As an example crew A =
worked 6
>> days 8-4 was off 2 days then started the next shift on 4-midnight, =
then midnight to 8. So at any one day 3 of the 4 crews were working and =
the other
>> crew was off.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Stephen Clark
>> *NetWolves*
>> Sr. Software Engineer III
>> Phone: 813-579-3200
>> Fax: 813-882-0209
>> Email: steve.clark@netwolves.com
>> http://www.netwolves.com
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:52:11 -0400
>> From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: Greg Moore <mooregr@greenms.com>
>> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <CAC57439-9CCC-42E3-8CB4-FA4141D8F3DA@americafree.tv>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Apr 15, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Greg Moore wrote:
>>=20
>>> When I did this years ago I found 5 was really a minimum so that I =
could cover weekends and then had extra coverage as needed during the =
week.
>>>=20
>>> I did find it was good to swap out the graveyard shift every 6 =
months or so. =20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> When I worked with NASA and the Navy on remote locations that needed =
full time staffing, the rule of thumb was
>> 5 people and 4 shifts was the absolute minimum, and the people had to =
be motivated enough to pull 12 hour shifts on a regular basis (i.e., =
this
>> was very bare bones). The 4th shift was needed during the weekends.=20=
>>=20
>> Anything less, and you would have uncovered periods if, say, 2 people =
got sick simultaneously.
>>=20
>> Regards
>> Marshall
>>=20
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: harbor235
>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:14 AM
>>> To: NANOG list
>>> Subject: 365x24x7
>>>=20
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need
>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>> required
>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>>=20
>>> thoughts, experience?
>>>=20
>>> Mike
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:27:32 +0100
>> From: Alex Brooks <askoorb+nanog@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: nanog <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <BANLkTikkVH_yk=3D97oWgq_A0YLxZ9dxNVXg@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:14 PM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need
>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>> required
>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>=20
>> Well, if you feel like being "nice" to your employees, or want to =
stop
>> them from making mistakes a few months/years in to shift work, (or if
>> you're having to set something up abroad), the Working Time Directive
>> can be a useful guideline.
>>=20
>> (Full details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive
>> and =
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=3D1073858926
>> if you're board, ignore the silly bits)
>>=20
>> But basically, in general, workers aged 18 and over are entitled to:
>>=20
>> - work no more than six days out of every seven, or 12 out of every =
14
>> - take a 20-minute break if their shift lasts for more than six hours
>> - work a maximum 48-hour average week
>>=20
>> And in general, night workers:
>>=20
>> - should not work more than an average of eight hours in a 24-hour
>> period, averaged over a reference period of 17 weeks
>>=20
>> If you're an employer, be glad you're in North America :-)
>>=20
>> HTH,
>>=20
>> Alex
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 9
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:31:48 -0500
>> From: "Sanders, Randall K" <Randall.K.Sanders@xo.com>
>> Subject: RE: 365x24x7
>> To: nanog <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> =
<B0E45381691B4E4188ECEE2507142CFC5C7B3660@txplanexch01.corp.inthosts.net>
>> =09
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"
>>=20
>> Have you taken into account number of alarms per hour, inbound call =
volume for repairs, and how much repair is done at the first tier level? =
Bare minimum staffing in a busy environment?
>>=20
>> Randy Sanders
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alex Brooks [mailto:askoorb+nanog@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:28 AM
>> To: nanog
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:14 PM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need
>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>> required
>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>=20
>> Well, if you feel like being "nice" to your employees, or want to =
stop
>> them from making mistakes a few months/years in to shift work, (or if
>> you're having to set something up abroad), the Working Time Directive
>> can be a useful guideline.
>>=20
>> (Full details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive
>> and =
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=3D1073858926
>> if you're board, ignore the silly bits)
>>=20
>> But basically, in general, workers aged 18 and over are entitled to:
>>=20
>> - work no more than six days out of every seven, or 12 out of every =
14
>> - take a 20-minute break if their shift lasts for more than six hours
>> - work a maximum 48-hour average week
>>=20
>> And in general, night workers:
>>=20
>> - should not work more than an average of eight hours in a 24-hour
>> period, averaged over a reference period of 17 weeks
>>=20
>> If you're an employer, be glad you're in North America :-)
>>=20
>> HTH,
>>=20
>> Alex
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 10
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:36:35 +0100
>> From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>
>> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID:
>> <alpine.LSU.2.00.1104151530010.19442@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk>
>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII
>>=20
>> harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel
>>> do I need to fully cover operations?
>>=20
>> Hours in the working year =3D 8 * 5 * 48 =3D 1920
>> Hours in the calendar year =3D 24 * 7 * 52 =3D 8736
>> Ratio =3D 4.55
>>=20
>> Tony.
>> --=20
>> f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/
>> Rockall, Malin, Hebrides: South 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 at first =
in
>> Rockall and Malin, veering west or northwest 4 or 5, then backing =
southwest 5
>> or 6 later. Rough or very rough. Occasional rain. Moderate or good,
>> occasionally poor.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 11
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:52:02 -0400
>> From: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org>
>> Message-ID: <BANLkTinLSBedu3hq8hg4ihjEMcOHHbRjGg@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=20
>> Guys,
>>=20
>> Thanx alot, there is some great stuff here, also some stuff I had not
>> thought of.
>>=20
>> thanx again,
>>=20
>> Mike
>>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
>>=20
>>> harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel
>>>> do I need to fully cover operations?
>>>=20
>>> Hours in the working year =3D 8 * 5 * 48 =3D 1920
>>> Hours in the calendar year =3D 24 * 7 * 52 =3D 8736
>>> Ratio =3D 4.55
>>>=20
>>> Tony.
>>> --
>>> f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/
>>> Rockall, Malin, Hebrides: South 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 at first =
in
>>> Rockall and Malin, veering west or northwest 4 or 5, then backing =
southwest
>>> 5
>>> or 6 later. Rough or very rough. Occasional rain. Moderate or good,
>>> occasionally poor.
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> Message: 12
>> Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 05:52:13 -1000
>> From: Paul Graydon <paul@paulgraydon.co.uk>
>> Subject: Re: 365x24x7
>> To: nanog@nanog.org
>> Message-ID: <4DA869AD.9070202@paulgraydon.co.uk>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed
>>=20
>> On 4/15/2011 3:14 AM, harbor235 wrote:
>>> If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of =
personnel do I
>>> need
>>> to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to =
cover the
>>> required
>>> 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
>>>=20
>>> thoughts, experience?
>>>=20
>>> Mike
>>>=20
>> For what it's worth, was part of a datacenter operations department =
that=20
>> had a 24x7 team. 4 shifts, 4 staff on each shift (1 was supervisor =
who=20
>> did same work as the rest, 1 'point of contact' who stayed in the =
office).
>> 4 days on, 4 days off, 12 hour shifts, 8-8. Shift teams would =
alternate=20
>> between day and night (so 4 day, 4 off, 4 night, 4 off, repeat ad=20
>> infinitum). During the day that was bolstered by 6 day-staff, Monday =
to=20
>> Friday, who would have a staggered start through the day (IIRC 2 =
start=20
>> at 8, 2 at 9, 2 at 11)
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------------------------------
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> NANOG mailing list
>> NANOG@nanog.org
>> https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog
>>=20
>> End of NANOG Digest, Vol 39, Issue 46
>> *************************************
> =20
