[102059] in North American Network Operators' Group
RE: EU Official: IP Is Personal
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rod Beck)
Thu Jan 24 08:49:44 2008
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:30:42 -0000
From: "Rod Beck" <Rod.Beck@hiberniaatlantic.com>
To: "J. Oquendo" <sil@infiltrated.net>,
"Roland Perry" <lists@internetpolicyagency.com>
Cc: <nanog@merit.edu>
Errors-To: owner-nanog@merit.edu
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I am frankly shocked that some people claim that you cannot identify =
people by the IP address. There was a scandal in the States where a well =
known ISP released search records and the New York Times was able to =
identify individuals using the IP address together with the search =
records.=20
If a daily newspaper can, I suspect just about any body can ...
I see no difference between a static IP address and a credit card =
number. Neither are the individual's property, but that doesn't mean =
there should not be legal or ethical obligations surrounding them. =20
As always my opinions are my opinions and not official corporate policy=20
Roderick S. Beck
Director of European Sales
Hibernia Atlantic
1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris
http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com
Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.=20
Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.
French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97.
AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth
rod.beck@hiberniaatlantic.com
rodbeck@erols.com
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' =
Albert Einstein.=20
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of J. Oquendo
Sent: Thu 1/24/2008 12:57 PM
To: Roland Perry
Cc: nanog@merit.edu
Subject: Re: EU Official: IP Is Personal
=20
Roland Perry wrote:
> Putting aside for a moment the issue of "whose dollars pay for it" =
there=20
> is no fundamental contradiction in the proposition that private sector =
> information can be mandated to be kept for minimum periods, is=20
> confidential, but nevertheless can be acquired by lawful subpoena.
>=20
> Think about banking records, for example, which are confidential,=20
> routinely examined in criminal enquiries, and which have to be kept =
for=20
> various minimum periods by accountancy law. Operationally, the banks=20
> have had to invest in special departments to do just that, it's simply =
> part of the cost of doing business.
The difference with banking records and computer generated records is,=20
you can literally track down whether by PIN on an ATM along with for the =
majority of times an image taken from a camera. Try doing this with IP=20
generated information. While law enforcement subpoenas away information, =
there is no guarantee person X is definitively behind even a static IP=20
address. Its hearsay no matter how you want to look at this. Outside of=20
the fact that lawyers still up to this day and age can't seem to grasp=20
an all-in-one argument to get IP address information thrown out, what's=20
next? Perhaps law enforcement agencies forcing vendors to include enough =
memory on wireless devices to track who logged in on a hotspot?
Everyone sees the need for all sorts of accounting on the networking=20
side of things but how legitimate is the information when anyone can=20
share MAC addresses, jump into hotspots anonymously, quickly break into=20
wireless networks, venture into an Internet cafe paying cash, throw on a =
bootable (throwaway) distribution of BSD/Linux/Solaris, do some dirty=20
deed and leave it up to someone else to take the blame.
--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
J. Oquendo
SGFA #579 (FW+VPN v4.1)
SGFE #574 (FW+VPN v4.1)
wget -qO - www.infiltrated.net/sig|perl
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=3Dget&search=3D0xF684C42E
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am frankly shocked that some people claim that you =
cannot identify people by the IP address. There was a scandal in the =
States where a well known ISP released search records and the New York =
Times was able to identify individuals using the IP address together =
with the search records.<BR>
<BR>
If a daily newspaper can, I suspect just about any body can ...<BR>
<BR>
I see no difference between a static IP address and a credit card =
number. Neither are the individual's property, but that doesn't mean =
there should not be legal or ethical obligations surrounding =
them. <BR>
<BR>
As always my opinions are my opinions and not official corporate =
policy<BR>
<BR>
Roderick S. Beck<BR>
Director of European Sales<BR>
Hibernia Atlantic<BR>
1, Passage du Chantier, 75012 Paris<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com">http://www.hiberniaatlantic.com<=
/A><BR>
Wireless: 1-212-444-8829.<BR>
Landline: 33-1-4346-3209.<BR>
French Wireless: 33-6-14-33-48-97.<BR>
AOL Messenger: GlobalBandwidth<BR>
rod.beck@hiberniaatlantic.com<BR>
rodbeck@erols.com<BR>
``Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.'' =
Albert Einstein.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: owner-nanog@merit.edu on behalf of J. Oquendo<BR>
Sent: Thu 1/24/2008 12:57 PM<BR>
To: Roland Perry<BR>
Cc: nanog@merit.edu<BR>
Subject: Re: EU Official: IP Is Personal<BR>
<BR>
Roland Perry wrote:<BR>
<BR>
> Putting aside for a moment the issue of "whose dollars pay for =
it" there<BR>
> is no fundamental contradiction in the proposition that private =
sector<BR>
> information can be mandated to be kept for minimum periods, is<BR>
> confidential, but nevertheless can be acquired by lawful =
subpoena.<BR>
><BR>
> Think about banking records, for example, which are =
confidential,<BR>
> routinely examined in criminal enquiries, and which have to be kept =
for<BR>
> various minimum periods by accountancy law. Operationally, the =
banks<BR>
> have had to invest in special departments to do just that, it's =
simply<BR>
> part of the cost of doing business.<BR>
<BR>
The difference with banking records and computer generated records =
is,<BR>
you can literally track down whether by PIN on an ATM along with for =
the<BR>
majority of times an image taken from a camera. Try doing this with =
IP<BR>
generated information. While law enforcement subpoenas away =
information,<BR>
there is no guarantee person X is definitively behind even a static =
IP<BR>
address. Its hearsay no matter how you want to look at this. Outside =
of<BR>
the fact that lawyers still up to this day and age can't seem to =
grasp<BR>
an all-in-one argument to get IP address information thrown out, =
what's<BR>
next? Perhaps law enforcement agencies forcing vendors to include =
enough<BR>
memory on wireless devices to track who logged in on a hotspot?<BR>
<BR>
Everyone sees the need for all sorts of accounting on the networking<BR>
side of things but how legitimate is the information when anyone can<BR>
share MAC addresses, jump into hotspots anonymously, quickly break =
into<BR>
wireless networks, venture into an Internet cafe paying cash, throw on =
a<BR>
bootable (throwaway) distribution of BSD/Linux/Solaris, do some =
dirty<BR>
deed and leave it up to someone else to take the blame.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<BR>
J. Oquendo<BR>
<BR>
SGFA #579 (FW+VPN v4.1)<BR>
SGFE #574 (FW+VPN v4.1)<BR>
<BR>
wget -qO - www.infiltrated.net/sig|perl<BR>
<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=3Dget&search=3D0xF684C42E"=
>http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=3Dget&search=3D0xF684C42E</A><BR>=
<BR>
<BR>
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