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Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:45:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Solochek <leko@MIT.EDU> cc: <mit-talk@MIT.EDU> In-Reply-To: <p04320400b7172cf98f37@[18.239.2.207]> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.30L.0105031339160.24246-100000@biohazard-cafe.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why are you ignoring the glaring difference that Irish and Italians are white? If a poor Italian saves up some money, gets a decent suit and goes to get a job, it would be pretty hard to tell he's an Italian as opposed to some random other white person (assuming he has no accent, which after the first generation could very well be the case.) Blacks cannot hide their skin color like a white Italian can hide his ethnicity. -Aaron On Thu, 3 May 2001, Samuel Coradetti wrote: > So are you saying that the Irish and Italians didn't come here with > nothing, and didn't face extreme prejudice? You'd better pick up a > history book dude. If you compare the Irish in the early 1800s and > the Italians in the late 1800s to Americans with dark skin in the > middle of this century, their positions are fairly comprable. They > were all considered sub-human garbage by the affluent classes, and > most of them were dirt poor. They were all exploited as the cheap > labor, but the Irish/Italian immigrants had it much worse because > there were fewer labor laws and the US government routinely helped > factory owners crack down on strikes (usually violently), regardless > of how bad the working conditions were. > > Now the descendants of those Irish and Italian immigrants are as well > off as any group in America today. In fact, they have become so > accepted that they along with everyone else in this country who had > European ancestors are simply referred to as "white". I'm starting > to get the impression that some of you think this has always been the > case. There have been times and places in America where if you were > white skinned but from a certain part of Europe, you were as bad off > or even worse off than a some one who had black skin. Racism isn't > about skin pigmentation, it's about identifying your self based on > your ancestors and making judgements about others based on theirs. > > They didn't get there by demanding government programs to redress > past wrongs, or by teaching their children that they are victims and > that living in America is some sort of burden. They got there by > working hard and slowly eroding away the irrational hate that > surrounded them. You might even say that they had to "again and > again prove their worth" to those who would irrationally judge them. > The Irish in particular had a rough road to equality. After > struggling for years in dirty slums and in the psuedo-slavery of the > early industrial revolution, they fought and died for the union in > disproportionally high numbers during the civil war. That's a pretty > high price to pay for a country that treats you like dirt. This is > the way it has been for every new cultural group that comes to > America, and I fear it will continue in this manner as long as a > large number of us identify ourselves so strongly with the group of > people we happen to share the most DNA with instead of the group we > share the most ideas and interests with. I'm not saying this is how > it should be, not by a long shot, I just think some people need a > little perspective here. > > -Sam > > p.s. Rich- are you really and Irish/Italian/etc., or are you an > American? My ancestors Immigrated from Italy, Ireland, and England, > but I am American. If you identify yourself so strongly with Italy > or Ireland, you should go live there. > > -- > _____________________ > Samuel Coradetti > 450 Memorial Dr. > Cambridge, MA 02139 > (617) 225-9329 > scorad@mit.edu >
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