[6269] in APO Printshop
Re: Re: Re: Vice on table
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (PiperXP@gmail.com)
Fri Jan 28 16:19:33 2011
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1101281529150.2384@buzzword-bingo.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 21:19:30 +0000
From: PiperXP@gmail.com
To: "Leonard H Tower Jr." <tower@alum.mit.edu>, PiperXP@gmail.com
Cc: Catherine Olsson <catherio@mit.edu>,
Charley Hamilton <charley.hamilton@gmail.com>,
Mitchell E Berger <mitchb@mit.edu>, apo-printshop@mit.edu,
rhkeeler@mit.edu, "apo-president@mit.edu" <apo-president@mit.edu>
--20cf305499c7366c87049aee9f11
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I still don't see how this decision is being forced on you, given that this
entire thread is about trying to find a solution. Forcing a decision on the
print shop would've been just tossing the thing out - which would've been
very easy to do - but people are instead trying to make suggestions and get
something that works for everyone. This, of course, does not mean that both
sides will have what is most ideal for them - hence, compromise.
The actives discussed an office reorganization at CAPS (CPPC). The CAPS
minutes have a better list of things that we wanted improved in the office,
and the middle of IAP was the most ideal time to do this. Once term starts
up again, students just don't have time anymore. I'm sorry that this was
inconvenient timing for you - and I'm really sorry to hear about your
father's condition - but the timing of the reorganization simply had to do
with the time that the actives had to help with the cleanout.
I think AX very much does appreciate your work, and would love to see
actives learn from your skills. I am very sorry to hear that you feel
unappreciated. I hope that this email cleared up to some degree what
happened, and I hope we can work towards a solution that will have everyone
be content.
(I would need to go take a look at the office to actually give an opinion
on the solution you suggested, so I'll withhold that and let other people
speak up.)
- Piper
On Jan 28, 2011 4:00pm, "Leonard H Tower Jr." <tower@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Compromise?
> No.
> Just trying to force a decision on me.
> Compromise would be working with me to try to meet the all the goals,
> WITHOUT adding to the time that it takes me to do the Service you ask
> of me.
> I asked Catherine several times for the goals of this reorg. And this
> group of email addresses once. Nothing that makes any sense back. In
> fact, what little I've been told is in PiperX's email below,
> I answered Catherine's emails when I was in FL, about the Shop and the
> reorg. I was visiting my father who is 86 and ailing. I asked
> Catherine if we couldn't meet when I got back. She wasn't interested.
> It's hard to try and suggest compromises when i'm left in the dark
> like this.
> I offered one compromise thar makes sense granted the little you have
> shared with me of your goals.
> Here's another. Get rid of the thin narrow table next to the coke
> frig (on the yellow wall shared with W20-413). Lower the blue shelves
> to the floor. Put the white shelves with office supplies and
> equipment on the table with the vice. The table also works as a
> workstation to use the office equipment. Store things underneath,
> Find other ways to use it. Add a stool so people, who wish can sit nd
> work there.
> There is some strange twisted logic going on here. That it's OK to
> ask a 61 year old to do service for you, but it's also OK to make it
> harder on him than it already is.
> Comments?
> Anyone want to accept one of my compromises or work towards another?
> Sincerely
> Leonard H. Tower Jr.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 06:00:06 +0000
> From: PiperXP@gmail.com
> To: Leonard H Tower Jr. tower@alum.mit.edu>
> Cc: Catherine Olsson catherio@MIT.EDU>,
> Charley Hamilton charley.hamilton@gmail.com>,
> Mitchell E Berger mitchb@MIT.EDU>, apo-printshop@MIT.EDU,
> rhkeeler@MIT.EDU, "apo-president@mit.edu" apo-president@MIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Re: Vice on table
> Charley, could you elaborate on what you meant about mounting the vice to
> the
> wall? If it's intended to be mounted with a table, I misunderstood :)
> > The Press Shop needs are meet by the current vise and table.
> Sure, but the actives' needs aren't being met. We want a clean and
> easy-to-navigate office, and the current vise table gets in the way. It
> appears to me that Catherine&co are trying very hard to reach a
> compromise,
> and would appreciate flexibility from the print shop with regard to space
> that is not dedicated to it.
> On Jan 28, 2011 12:18am, "Leonard H Tower Jr." tower@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:14:50 -0500
> > From: Catherine Olsson catherio@MIT.EDU>
> > Thanks so much for the suggestion, Charley! I'm glad you have the
> technical
> > know-how to understand what would be involved - I sure don't =).
> > I'm *sure* it will be easier to find a bit of space for a wall-mounted
> vice
> > than for an entire waist-height table, and there will be more layout
> > freedom
> > for future rearrangements too. Presshop, would this be feasible for your
> > needs?
> > What Charley has in mind is about the same size and height as the
> > current table. You need a certain amount of working space to use a
> > vice. An ideal workbench would be a good bit longer.
> > He's concerned about use of the vise being safer. What he proposed
> > will also make for a vise that is easier to use. So, Charley is
> > offering to design two things:
> > * A super stiff, super strong workbench for a vice. To do this on
> > a narrow base, or without floor contact (hanging the workbench on the
> > wall as a cantilever) would probably add a lot to the cost, and add an
> > large multiplier to the forces exerted on the wall.
> > * a super strong way to attach this workbench to one of the
> > APOffice walls, so it can't be tipped over, or moved.
> > Ataching the workbench to the wall, requires information from the
> > Department of Facilities (Charley knew it as 'Physical Plant') on how
> > the walls are constructed, and exactly what kind of masonry they are.
> > Facilities could well want approval from the CAC. Facilities might
> > not want the walls to have this much force exerted on them. They have
> > a legitimate concern that the walls not be damaged or worse fail.
> > They might not want to let the information off campus, or accept a
> > design by Charley.
> > Note that the forces involved are different and significantly more
> > intense, than mounting a storage shelf on a wall.
> > If AX wants to go to this expense, it might make sense to buy a vice
> > that is larger, has more features, is easier to use, etc.
> > IMHO, the minuses outweigh the pluses here (if the actives want me to
> > expand on that please ask), but that's a decision for the actives to
> > make.
> > The Press Shop needs are meet by the current vise and table.
> > yiLFS -len
> > PS: A minus? Having something fixed to a wall constrains APOffice
> > reorgs. They are hard to move. How might the APOffice work better if
> > the largest bulletin board or the vertical floor to ceiling chalk
> > board were moved, or gone?
> > On 01/26/2011 10:59 PM, Charley Hamilton wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Mitchell E Bergermitchb@mit.edu>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Folding table we can store in the printshop, maybe near the Dexion's
> > > > usual home? That would be a little less high than the existing
> > > > table, but mostly satisfies the height need. It satisfies the
> > > > working room need because you can take it out and place it wherever
> > > > you want to work. It does not satisfy the thickness or sturdiness
> > > > goals, but we could perhaps get an additional piece of wood about
> > > > the same dimension as the folding table's top, stored in the same
> > > > place, that can be put on top of it when you want to use the vice
> > > > to thicken and reinforce it.
> > > >
> > > > This table could potentially find other uses, too - maybe for
> > > > ironing silkscreened shirts in the office.
> > > >
> > > > Mitch
> > >
> > > Regarding mounting of bench vises, I have a 6" jaw vise mounted in my
> > > garage on a home-built workbench. The workbench weighs in excess of
> > > 600# (including all of the misc tools inside) and I still manage to
> > > tip it occasionally when working with the vise. Any "tabletop"
> > > solution would need to have adequate mass to resist uplift/overturning
> > > while using the vise.
> > >
> > > Is there a location in the APOffice where the vise could be mounted to
> > > a wall? How averse are folks to discussing placement of a 2-3 epoxy
> > > anchors into the CMU walls with Phys Plant? I can probably work up a
> > > design (being an structural engineer comes in handy that way) that
> > > could resist the necessary design forces if the Press Shop and Exec
> > > Comm can agree on a home.
> > >
> > > If the masonry wall is grouted (Phys Plant's structural drawings and a
> > > 1C or Phys Plant engineer to read them could answer this), it could
> > > even be done with something like a Simpson Titen HD anchor. That
> > > would only require drilling the holes in the masonry, and driving the
> > > screw anchor in place. APO could rent the hardware to do the install
> > > (Hilti rotary hammer drill and an impact driver) from Home Depot's
> > > rental department, and the whole thing would be removable (unlike an
> > > epoxy anchor, which would need to be cut off flush) if the APOffice
> > > ever moves.
> > >
> > > If this is of interest, and somebody can give me a description of the
> > > vise and what it is used for, I could back-of-the envelope a
> > > wall-mounted solution that APO could price. That way, Exec Comm and
> > > the Press Shop could consider cost in their decision.
> > >
> > >
> > > YiLFS,
> > >
> > > Charley
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I still don't see how this decision is being forced on you, given that =
this entire thread is about trying to find a solution. Forcing a decision =
on the print shop would've been just tossing the thing out - which woul=
d've been very easy to do - but people are instead trying to make sugge=
stions and get something that works for everyone. This, of course, does no=
t mean that both sides will have what is most ideal for them - hence, compr=
omise.<br /><br />The actives discussed an office reorganization at CAPS (C=
PPC). The CAPS minutes have a better list of things that we wanted improve=
d in the office, and the middle of IAP was the most ideal time to do this. =
Once term starts up again, students just don't have time anymore. I&#=
39;m sorry that this was inconvenient timing for you - and I'm really s=
orry to hear about your father's condition - but the timing of the reor=
ganization simply had to do with the time that the actives had to help with=
the cleanout.<br /><br />I think AX very much does appreciate your work, a=
nd would love to see actives learn from your skills. I am very sorry to he=
ar that you feel unappreciated. I hope that this email cleared up to some =
degree what happened, and I hope we can work towards a solution that will h=
ave everyone be content.<br /><br />(I would need to go take a look at the =
office to actually give an opinion on the solution you suggested, so I'=
ll withhold that and let other people speak up.)<br /><br />- Piper<br /><b=
r /><br /><br /><br />On Jan 28, 2011 4:00pm, "Leonard H Tower Jr.&quo=
t; <tower@alum.mit.edu> wrote:<br />> Compromise?<br />> <br />=
> <br />> <br />> No.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> J=
ust trying to force a decision on me.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br /=
>> Compromise would be working with me to try to meet the all the goals,=
<br />> <br />> WITHOUT adding to the time that it takes me to do the=
Service you ask<br />> <br />> of me.<br />> <br />> <br />>=
; <br />> I asked Catherine several times for the goals of this reorg. =
=A0And this<br />> <br />> group of email addresses once. =A0Nothing =
that makes any sense back. =A0In<br />> <br />> fact, what little I&#=
39;ve been told is in PiperX's email below,<br />> <br />> <br />=
> <br />> I answered Catherine's emails when I was in FL, about t=
he Shop and the<br />> <br />> reorg. =A0I was visiting my father who=
is 86 and ailing. =A0I asked<br />> <br />> Catherine if we couldn&#=
39;t meet when I got back. =A0She wasn't interested.<br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> It's hard to try and suggest compromises when =
i'm left in the dark<br />> <br />> like this.<br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> I offered one compromise thar makes sense granted =
the little you have<br />> <br />> shared with me of your goals.<br /=
>> <br />> <br />> <br />> Here's another. =A0Get rid of th=
e thin narrow table next to the coke<br />> <br />> frig (on the yell=
ow wall shared with W20-413). =A0Lower the blue shelves<br />> <br />>=
; to the floor. =A0Put the white shelves with office supplies and<br />>=
<br />> equipment on the table with the vice. =A0The table also works a=
s a<br />> <br />> workstation to use the office equipment. =A0Store =
things underneath,<br />> <br />> Find other ways to use it. =A0Add a=
stool so people, who wish can sit nd<br />> <br />> work there.<br /=
>> <br />> <br />> <br />> There is some strange twisted logic =
going on here. =A0That it's OK to<br />> <br />> ask a 61 year ol=
d to do service for you, but it's also OK to make it<br />> <br />&g=
t; harder on him than it already is.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />=
> Comments?<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> Anyone want to ac=
cept one of my compromises or work towards another?<br />> <br />> <b=
r />> <br />> Sincerely<br />> <br />> Leonard H. Tower Jr.<br =
/>> <br />> <br />> <br />> -----------------------------------=
-----------------------------------<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />&=
gt; =A0 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 06:00:06 +0000<br />> <br />> =A0 Fr=
om: PiperXP@gmail.com<br />> <br />> =A0 To: Leonard H Tower Jr. tow=
er@alum.mit.edu><br />> <br />> =A0 Cc: Catherine Olsson catherio=
@MIT.EDU>,<br />> <br />> =A0 =A0 =A0 Charley Hamilton charley.ha=
milton@gmail.com>,<br />> <br />> =A0 =A0 =A0 Mitchell E Berger m=
itchb@MIT.EDU>, apo-printshop@MIT.EDU,<br />> <br />> =A0 =A0 =A0=
rhkeeler@MIT.EDU, "apo-president@mit.edu" apo-president@MIT.EDU&=
gt;<br />> <br />> =A0 Subject: Re: Re: Vice on table<br />> <br =
/>> <br />> <br />> =A0 Charley, could you elaborate on what you =
meant about mounting the vice to the<br />> <br />> =A0 wall? If it&=
#39;s intended to be mounted with a table, I misunderstood :)<br />> <br=
/>> <br />> <br />> =A0 > The Press Shop needs are meet by th=
e current vise and table.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 S=
ure, but the actives' needs aren't being met. We want a clean and<b=
r />> <br />> =A0 easy-to-navigate office, and the current vise tabl=
e gets in the way. It<br />> <br />> =A0 appears to me that Catherin=
e&co are trying very hard to reach a compromise,<br />> <br />> =A0 =
and would appreciate flexibility from the print shop with regard to space<b=
r />> <br />> =A0 that is not dedicated to it.<br />> <br />> =
<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 On Jan 28, 2011 12:18am, &=
quot;Leonard H Tower Jr." tower@alum.mit.edu> wrote:<br />> <br =
/>> =A0 > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:14:50 -0500<br />> <br />>=
<br />> <br />> =A0 > From: Catherine Olsson catherio@MIT.EDU>=
;<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> =A0 > Thanks so much for the suggestion, Charley! I'm=
glad you have the technical<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > know-how to understand what would be involved - I sure don't =
=3D).<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br =
/>> <br />> =A0 > I'm *sure* it will be easier to find a bit =
of space for a wall-mounted vice<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />>=
=A0 > than for an entire waist-height table, and there will be more la=
yout<br />> <br />> =A0 > freedom<br />> <br />> <br />>=
<br />> =A0 > for future rearrangements too. Presshop, would this b=
e feasible for your<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > ne=
eds?<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br /=
>> <br />> =A0 > What Charley has in mind is about the same size =
and height as the<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > curr=
ent table. You need a certain amount of working space to use a<br />> <b=
r />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > vice. An ideal workbench would be =
a good bit longer.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <b=
r />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > He's concerned about use of th=
e vise being safer. What he proposed<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />=
> =A0 > will also make for a vise that is easier to use. So, Charley=
is<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > offering to design=
two things:<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> =A0 > * A super stiff, super strong workbench =
for a vice. To do this on<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 &=
gt; a narrow base, or without floor contact (hanging the workbench on the<b=
r />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > wall as a cantilever) w=
ould probably add a lot to the cost, and add an<br />> <br />> <br />=
> <br />> =A0 > large multiplier to the forces exerted on the wal=
l.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />&=
gt; <br />> =A0 > * a super strong way to attach this workbench to o=
ne of the<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > APOffice wal=
ls, so it can't be tipped over, or moved.<br />> <br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > Atachin=
g the workbench to the wall, requires information from the<br />> <br />=
> <br />> <br />> =A0 > Department of Facilities (Charley knew=
it as 'Physical Plant') on how<br />> <br />> <br />> <br=
/>> =A0 > the walls are constructed, and exactly what kind of mason=
ry they are.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > Facilitie=
s could well want approval from the CAC. Facilities might<br />> <br />&=
gt; <br />> <br />> =A0 > not want the walls to have this much fo=
rce exerted on them. They have<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > a legitimate concern that the walls not be damaged or worse fail.<=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > They might not want to=
let the information off campus, or accept a<br />> <br />> <br />>=
; <br />> =A0 > design by Charley.<br />> <br />> <br />> <=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > Note that t=
he forces involved are different and significantly more<br />> <br />>=
; <br />> <br />> =A0 > intense, than mounting a storage shelf on=
a wall.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <=
br />> <br />> =A0 > If AX wants to go to this expense, it might =
make sense to buy a vice<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 &g=
t; that is larger, has more features, is easier to use, etc.<br />> <br =
/>> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > IMHO, the minuses outweigh the pluses here (if the actives want me=
to<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > expand on that ple=
ase ask), but that's a decision for the actives to<br />> <br />>=
<br />> <br />> =A0 > make.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br =
/>> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > The Press Shop=
needs are meet by the current vise and table.<br />> <br />> <br />&=
gt; <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > yiLFS =
-len<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br /=
>> <br />> =A0 > PS: A minus? Having something fixed to a wall co=
nstrains APOffice<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > reor=
gs. They are hard to move. How might the APOffice work better if<br />> =
<br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > the largest bulletin board or th=
e vertical floor to ceiling chalk<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />>=
; =A0 > board were moved, or gone?<br />> <br />> <br />> <br =
/>> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > On 01/26/2011 =
10:59 PM, Charley Hamilton wrote:<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />>=
; =A0 > > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Mitchell E Bergermitchb@=
mit.edu> wrote:<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > >=
; ><br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > Foldi=
ng table we can store in the printshop, maybe near the Dexion's<br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > usual home? That wo=
uld be a little less high than the existing<br />> <br />> <br />>=
<br />> =A0 > > > table, but mostly satisfies the height need=
. It satisfies the<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > >=
; > working room need because you can take it out and place it wherever<=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > you want to =
work. It does not satisfy the thickness or sturdiness<br />> <br />> =
<br />> <br />> =A0 > > > goals, but we could perhaps get a=
n additional piece of wood about<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />>=
=A0 > > > the same dimension as the folding table's top, sto=
red in the same<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > &=
gt; place, that can be put on top of it when you want to use the vice<br />=
> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > to thicken and re=
inforce it.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > ><=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > This table c=
ould potentially find other uses, too - maybe for<br />> <br />> <br =
/>> <br />> =A0 > > > ironing silkscreened shirts in the of=
fice.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > ><br />&=
gt; <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > > Mitch<br />> <b=
r />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > ><br />> <br />> <br />&g=
t; <br />> =A0 > > Regarding mounting of bench vises, I have a 6&=
quot; jaw vise mounted in my<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > > garage on a home-built workbench. The workbench weighs in exc=
ess of<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > 600# (incl=
uding all of the misc tools inside) and I still manage to<br />> <br />&=
gt; <br />> <br />> =A0 > > tip it occasionally when working w=
ith the vise. Any "tabletop"<br />> <br />> <br />> <br =
/>> =A0 > > solution would need to have adequate mass to resist u=
plift/overturning<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > >=
while using the vise.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 >=
><br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > Is there a =
location in the APOffice where the vise could be mounted to<br />> <br /=
>> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > a wall? How averse are folks to =
discussing placement of a 2-3 epoxy<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />&=
gt; =A0 > > anchors into the CMU walls with Phys Plant? I can probab=
ly work up a<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > desi=
gn (being an structural engineer comes in handy that way) that<br />> <b=
r />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > could resist the necessary de=
sign forces if the Press Shop and Exec<br />> <br />> <br />> <br =
/>> =A0 > > Comm can agree on a home.<br />> <br />> <br />=
> <br />> =A0 > ><br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > > If the masonry wall is grouted (Phys Plant's structural d=
rawings and a<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > 1C =
or Phys Plant engineer to read them could answer this), it could<br />> =
<br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > even be done with something=
like a Simpson Titen HD anchor. That<br />> <br />> <br />> <br /=
>> =A0 > > would only require drilling the holes in the masonry, =
and driving the<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > s=
crew anchor in place. APO could rent the hardware to do the install<br />&g=
t; <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > (Hilti rotary hammer dri=
ll and an impact driver) from Home Depot's<br />> <br />> <br />&=
gt; <br />> =A0 > > rental department, and the whole thing would =
be removable (unlike an<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 >=
; > epoxy anchor, which would need to be cut off flush) if the APOffice<=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > ever moves.<br />=
> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > ><br />> <br />> <=
br />> <br />> =A0 > > If this is of interest, and somebody ca=
n give me a description of the<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =
=A0 > > vise and what it is used for, I could back-of-the envelope a<=
br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > > wall-mounted solu=
tion that APO could price. That way, Exec Comm and<br />> <br />> <br=
/>> <br />> =A0 > > the Press Shop could consider cost in the=
ir decision.<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > ><br /=
>> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 > ><br />> <br />> =
<br />> <br />> =A0 > > YiLFS,<br />> <br />> <br />>=
<br />> =A0 > ><br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> =A0 =
> > Charley<br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br=
/>> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />> <br />>
--20cf305499c7366c87049aee9f11--
