[4524] in java-interest
Re: fresco vs. java
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Arthur van Hoff)
Thu Jan 4 20:35:38 1996
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:26:33 -0800
From: Arthur.Vanhoff@Eng.Sun.COM (Arthur van Hoff)
To: tim@protocol.com, farshidk@faslab.com
Cc: fresco@x.org, java-interest@java.Eng.Sun.COM
Hi,
I can give you some background on the history of the AWT and why it
is the way it is today. We (Sami Shaio and me) did a complete
rewrite of the AWT in August 1995. This was necessary because Netscape
insisted on using native components and the alpha3 AWT was very broken
in many respects. Jim Graham added all the image processing code.
The end result is not perfect but it does the job. We had to keep it
simple because we only had very little time to implement it and we
don't want to make it impossible to port. Personally I would liked to
have had a more stencil-paint oriented painting model (like PostScript)
with arbitrary rotation and scaling of all components and graphics.
but this doesn't mash well with Motif.
As it turned out, a lot of the implementation nightmares are caused by
Motif. Motif has bugs, impossible layout managers, undocumented features,
and memory leaks. Sami has wasted many hours chasing Motif related bugs
in the AWT. We could have done a lot more work had we based it on XLib
only and implemented all the components in Java (actually I have a version
that does this now).
Anyway, it is not a done deal. We are working on many extentions and
improvements. We've just hired a new engineer to work full-time on the
AWT. Personally I think it works great, given that it runs on several
platforms. Please keep sending us feedback so that the next versions
will get better...
Have fun,
Arthur van Hoff
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> From fresco-mailer@x.org Tue Jan 2 16:22:46 1996
> Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:23:49 -0800
> From: tim@protocol.com (Tim Brinson)
> To: barth@sandbagger.isf.rl.af.mil
> Cc: fresco@x.org
> Subject: Re: Status of Fresco - anything happening?
>
> Steve Barth writes:
>
> > Along with recent message senders, I am also wondering what's
> > happening with Fresco. However, for my own project, since it involves a
> > requirement for a WWW interface, I've switched to using Java. And I wonder
> > if the release of Java has dampened other object-oriented GUI development
> > efforts. Though I think Fresco and other C++ toolkits have a lot
> > more power and flexibility, Java applets seem to be all the rage.
>
> After looking at the Java AWT (Another Window Toolkit) I was
> disappointed it did not contain more advanced UI technology such as
> Fresco and Interviews has. My understanding is that it was designed
> after Tk and it seems to provide quite a bit of functionality for
> the not so serious GUI programmer.
>
> I have seen press releases from Sun, SGI, and Macromedia where they
> are working on providing Java applets for controlling VRML and
> multimedia applications on the web. For this they are obviously
> going to need something with features like Fresco has. It would be
> too bad if they create YAWT (Yet Another Windowing Toolkit).
>
> If any of you know people involved with Java system development at
> Sun, SGI, or Macromedia you should at least inform them of the
> advanced technology of Fresco. It really looks like Fresco would
> compliment the Java and HTML stuff that is out there now as well as
> giving an IDL interface to VRML.
>
> A lot of know that a lot of the concepts in Fresco and Interviews
> will eventually make it into main stream GUI toolkits. This is a
> historical time with the growth of Java and the internet. I hopy we
> don't have to wait until the next generation (5-10 years) to find
> commercial support for this kind of technology.
>
>
> ~~~~~
> /'* *`\
> +------------------oOOo-----U-----oOOo------------------+
> | Tim Brinson tim@protocol.com |
> | Protocol Systems, Inc. co-chair CORBAmed |
> | 8500 SW Creekside Place (503) 526-4392 |
> | Beaverton, Oregon 97008-7107 Fax (503) 526-4200 |
> +-------------------------------------------------------+
> | | | |
> {__| |__}
>
>
> ----- End Included Message -----
>
>
> ----- Begin Included Message -----
>
> From fresco-mailer@x.org Tue Jan 2 16:43:16 1996
> From: Larry.Cable@Eng.Sun.COM
> To: tim@protocol.com (Tim Brinson)
> Cc: fresco@x.org
> Subject: Re: Status of Fresco - anything happening?
> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 16:44:42 -0800
>
>
> > After looking at the Java AWT (Another Window Toolkit) I was
> > disappointed it did not contain more advanced UI technology such as
> > Fresco and Interviews has. My understanding is that it was designed
> > after Tk and it seems to provide quite a bit of functionality for
> > the not so serious GUI programmer.
> >
> > I have seen press releases from Sun, SGI, and Macromedia where they
> > are working on providing Java applets for controlling VRML and
> > multimedia applications on the web. For this they are obviously
> > going to need something with features like Fresco has. It would be
> > too bad if they create YAWT (Yet Another Windowing Toolkit).
> >
> > If any of you know people involved with Java system development at
> > Sun, SGI, or Macromedia you should at least inform them of the
> > advanced technology of Fresco. It really looks like Fresco would
> > compliment the Java and HTML stuff that is out there now as well as
> > giving an IDL interface to VRML.
>
> I could not agree more, but its still early days, I can only hope
> that market pressures and the constraints of being platform portable
> do not result in another rehashed melange of GUI mediocrity ... or
> YAMWT!
>
> Frankly I think the next person to attempt to reinvent another GUI API
> should be taken out and shot, which is not beyond the bounds of
> imagination should Microsoft become omnipotent!
>
> 8^)
>
> On a more serious note, I have forwarded your e-mail onto a responsible
> individual within JavaSoft ....
>
> - Larry. "put your pushbutton implementation down and come out
> with your hands up and noboday will get hurt"
>
>
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