[99864] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "A Klingon Christmas Carol" trailer
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Tue Nov 25 15:35:22 2014
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>, tlhIngan-Hol
<tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:34:21 +0000
In-Reply-To: <D6BF57F2-98EB-4BE4-B498-D41698B950A6@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
> I also wonder about the translation of {SutIv=92egh=92a=92?} as =93You wi=
ll enjoy yourselves!?=94
> If I had to say that in English, I=92m not sure how I=92d inflect it. Esp=
ecially given cultural
> overtones, I=92d expect a Klingon to actually be expressing puzzlement. =
=93Is it that you
> enjoy yourselves?=94 In other words, =93How could it be that as a species=
you enjoy
> yourselves? One can enjoy honor! One can enjoy a mission! One can enjoy v=
ictory!
> How can one enjoy one=92s =92self=92?"
It is indeed a pretty weird and very English expression. However, this is n=
ot the first time {tIv'egh} has been used to mean "enjoy oneself"; Korrd sa=
id {petIv'egh!} to Klaa and Vixis in Star Trek V.
...but he was a diplomat and had spent years on a pretty depressing planet =
with a bunch of humans, so maybe he'd picked up the expression from them.
Also, I share your thoughts on {ja'} vs. {jatlh}, but this wouldn't be the =
first time {ja'} is used in this way.
I usually take the grammar of paq'batlh with quite a few grains of salt, bu=
t it is does contain quite a lot of examples where {ja'} is used where one =
might expect {ja'}.
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'yav, Canto 10, Stanza 3 =3D=3D=3D
wIj jup
SengmeywIj vIja'laHbe'
jIHvaD ratlh pagh
Dear old friend,
I cannot speak of my tragedies,
There is nothing left for me.
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 6, Stanzas 1-4 =3D=3D=3D
loDnI=92Daj vavDaj je ja=92 qeylIS
nIteb peghoS
HatlhDaq peleng
toDuj lutraj quv lutraj je
QoymeH tlhIngan tuqmey
tIja=92
DaH peHarghchoH
DaH molor yISuvchoH
tIja=92
molor luSuvmeH
nuHmeychaj Suq
=92e=92 tlhob qeylIS
=3D=3D=3Dpaq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 7, Stanza 8 =3D=3D=3D
Qo=92noSDaq boqwI=92mey
nejmeH je leng qeylIS
=91ej chaHvaD lut ja=92
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 9, Stanza 5 =3D=3D=3D
lut ja=92taHvIS Hem rewbe=92
=91ej Dat SuchDI=92 qotar
Dach Hoch SuvwI=92pu=92 Hem
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 10, Stanza 4 & 8 =3D=3D=3D
le=92yo=92 lutmey juja=92pu=92mo=92 qatlho=92
cha=92 puqloDpu=92wI=92 puqbe=92wI=92 je
qa=92ang vIneH
[...]
lugh luqara=92 joH qanra=92
le=92yo=92 lutmey Saja=92pu=92
DaH naDev jIHtaHbogh meq Saja=92
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 11, Stanza 8 =3D=3D=3D
raSDaq toS qeylIS
rewbe=92pu=92 qaD
=91ej mu=92meyvam ja=92
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 14, Stanza 7 =3D=3D=3D
may=92 lunungbogh repmey=92e=92
qeylISvaD mu=92meyvam
ja=92ta=92 molor qotar je
=3D=3D=3D paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 1 =3D=3D=3D
ghu=92vam qellI=92 qotar
ghIq pagh ja=92taHvIS
qeylIS =91uchHa=92 =91ej ghaHvo=92 yIt
________________________________________
From: lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com [lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2014 21:10
To: tlhIngan-Hol
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] "A Klingon Christmas Carol" trailer
In Okrand=92s defense, perhaps the Klingon actually said {no=92wI=92} and t=
he translator mistakenly changed =93my ancestor(s)=94 into =93our ancestor(=
s)=94. Similarly {no=92chaj} is probably correct, since we are talking abou=
t multiple ancestors, even if we omit the plural suffix.
But I do think that the Klingon misspoke when he chose the verb {ja=92} ins=
tead of {jatlh} when he said {qatlh tlhIngan lut luja=92 tera=92ngan DawI=
=92pu=92lI=92?}
Okrand has clearly explained to us that the direct object of {jatlh} is a s=
peech or a story or a language, but the direct object of {ja=92} is another=
person. This is consistent with canon and dictionary examples of {ja=92chu=
q}, but no canon or dictionary examples of *{jatlhchuq}. You {jatlh} things=
that can=92t talk back. You {ja=92} those who can.
I hope that this is actually declared an error and not used as canon. Makin=
g it canon would make it official that the divide between {ja=92} and {jatl=
h} is muddy and useless and we might as well just have one word since they =
both basically mean the same thing and are interchangeable, especially when=
we were earlier told that the two were NOT interchangeable.
Maybe it was just a transcription error. Maybe the Klingon actually SAID {j=
atlh} and the person listening and typing just misunderstood and typed {ja=
=92}.
That=92s MY story, and I=92m STICKING to it.
I also wonder about the translation of {SutIv=92egh=92a=92?} as =93You will=
enjoy yourselves!?=94 If I had to say that in English, I=92m not sure how =
I=92d inflect it. Especially given cultural overtones, I=92d expect a Kling=
on to actually be expressing puzzlement. =93Is it that you enjoy yourselves=
?=94 In other words, =93How could it be that as a species you enjoy yoursel=
ves? One can enjoy honor! One can enjoy a mission! One can enjoy victory! H=
ow can one enjoy one=92s =92self=92?"
Imagine saying this with the same emotion with which Worf, sitting in a hot=
mud bath, turned to Deanna Troy and sneered, =93You mean I=92m just suppos=
ed to SIT here?"
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Retired Door Repair Guy
> On Nov 25, 2014, at 4:52 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 23 November 2014 at 20:49, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> jatlh Marc Okrand... DIvI' Hol neH jatlh, 'ach tlhIngan Hol lo' yu'wI':
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D5Nc5t9AZYsM
>>
>> mu' chu' 'oH'a'?
>> {DawI'} - "actor, actress"
>
> I got a confirmation that Marc Okrand wrote the Klingon for this, so
> {DawI'} is now canon for "actor, actress". :-)
>
> {tera'ngan wIyu'}
> Interrogation of an Earthling
>
> {'Iv SoH?}
> Who are you?
>
> {tlhIngan Hol 'oghta' pagh!
> tlhIngan Hol jatlh no'wI' 'ej
> tlhIngan Hol jatlh no'chaj!}
> No one invented the Klingon language!
> Our ancestors spoke Klingon and their ancestors spoke Klingon!
>
> [Note: {no'wI'} and not {no'ma'}, which is probably an error, and
> {no'chaj} not {no'Daj}!]
>
> {qatlh tlhIngan lut luja' tera'ngan DawI'pu'lI'?}
> Why are your earthling actors telling a Klingon story?
>
> {tlhInganpu' QaHbe' wanI'vam!}
> This event does not help Klingons!
>
> {toH - tlhIngan wo' botIch 'e' boHech. ghorgh? nuqDaq?}
> So - you intend to insult the Klingon Empire. When? Where?
>
> {Do'.}
> That's fortunate.
>
> {SutIv'egh'a'?!}
> You will enjoy yourselves?!
>
> --
> De'vID
>
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