[99454] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] From Marc Okrand: tu'lu' is a set form
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Wed Sep 3 02:22:30 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 23:22:06 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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We've suspected this for a while, given the number of times tu'lu' has been
used where lutu'lu' was expected. (Ugh, can't turn off smart quotes because
I need to keep the following formatting), but Marc has confirmed that tu'lu'
is a set form that is grammatical for singular or plural. I mentioned my
suspicion in a throwaway comment about something else he asked me to send
for Maltz' analysis, and he was able to verify it right away without even
consulting Maltz. His words:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
You're right about tu'lu'. It's a fixed or set form and it's used whether
the object is singular or plural. If the object is plural, the lu- could be
used or not -- but the form lacking the lu- is far more common and the form
with the lu- sounds a little pedantic. This kind of parallels what's going
on in English these days (at least in the US -- I don't know about Canada or
the UK) where "there's" is often used regardless of whether what follows is
singular or plural:
There's some things you need to know.
There's no tomatoes in the store.
There's more Klingons than Romulans around here.
There's a lot of cars on the road today.
This works for the contraction only. "There is some things...", "There is
no tomatoes...", "There is more Klingons...", "There is a lot of cars..."
are all ungrammatical. (Well, the last one is okay if by "lot" you're
referring to a place where they sell cars.)
It's fine to say:
There are some things..., There're some things...
There are no tomatoes..., There're no tomatoes...
There are more Klingons..., There're more Klingons...
There are a lot of cars..., There're a lot of cars...
Klingon works the same way. tu'lu' is like "there's" (object can be
singular or plural) and lutu'lu' is like "there are/there're" (object must
be plural).
My guess here is that a common Clipped Klingon construction crept into
everyday Klingon and became the usual way of doing things.
(excerpt from e-mail to me, dated 2014-09-02 21:47)
So we can keep being pedantic about lutu'lu' if we want, but that puts us on
the level of people (like me) who say "mmm" as we pass the "Who will you
share a Coke with?" sign, and not because I like Coca-Cola.
- Qov
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<TITLE>From Marc Okrand: tu'lu' is a set form</TITLE>
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca">We’ve suspected this for a =
while, given the number of times tu’lu’ has been used where =
lutu’lu’ was expected. (Ugh, can’t turn off smart =
quotes because I need to keep the following formatting), but Marc has =
confirmed that tu’lu’ is a set form that is grammatical for =
singular or plural. I mentioned my suspicion in a throwaway comment =
about something else he asked me to send for Maltz’ analysis, and =
he was able to verify it right away without even consulting Maltz. His =
words:<BR>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------<BR>
You're right about<B> tu'lu'</B>. It's a fixed or set form and =
it's used whether the object is singular or plural. If the object =
is plural, the<B> lu</B>- could be used or not -- but the form lacking =
the<B> lu</B>- is far more common and the form with the<B> lu</B>- =
sounds a little pedantic. This kind of parallels what's going on =
in English these days (at least in the US -- I don't know about Canada =
or the UK) where "there's" is often used regardless of whether =
what follows is singular or plural:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There's some =
things you need to know.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There's no =
tomatoes in the store.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There's more =
Klingons than Romulans around here.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There's a lot =
of cars on the road today.</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca">This works for the contraction only. =
"There is some things...", "There is no =
tomatoes...", "There is more Klingons...", "There is =
a lot of cars..." are all ungrammatical. (Well, the last one =
is okay if by "lot" you're referring to a place where they =
sell cars.)</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca">It's fine to say:</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There are some =
things..., There're some things...</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There are no =
tomatoes..., There're no tomatoes...</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There are more =
Klingons..., There're more Klingons...</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> There are a =
lot of cars..., There're a lot of cars...</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca">Klingon works the same way. =
<B>tu'lu'</B> is like "there's" (object can be singular =
or plural) and<B> lutu'lu'</B> is like "there =
are/there're" (object must be plural).</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca">My guess here is that a common Clipped =
Klingon construction crept into everyday Klingon and became the usual =
way of doing things.<BR>
<BR>
(excerpt from e-mail to me, dated 2014-09-02 21:47)</SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">So we can keep =
being pedantic about lutu’lu’ if we want, but that puts us =
on the level of people (like me) who say</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">“mmm” as we pass the “Who will you =
share a Coke with?” sign, and not because I like =
Coca-Cola.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">- =
Qov</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
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