[99386] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Fwd: Catholic priest seeks recording of prayer
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Holt)
Fri Aug 15 21:24:35 2014
From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 20:24:19 -0500
In-Reply-To: <006f01cfb8a3$6e479a00$4ad6ce00$@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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ghItlh voragh:
> Was Isidor a medical doctor - i.e. a physician {Qel} - or a doctor of phi=
losophy? If the latter=2C call him a {ghojmoHwI'} "teacher". As> someone po=
inted out earlier a bishop is etymologically an overseer=2C so either {vu'w=
I'} "manager" or {loHwI'} "magistrate" (lit.> "administrator") work.
"Bishop" is a specialized term and all of the translations on Fr. Z's page =
use one of the various transliterations of it=2C so I am happy to do the sa=
me. As for "Doctor"=2C I am much less familiar with Latin and didn't reali=
ze that it actually meant teacher. As far as I can tell=2C Isidore was not=
a medical physician=2C but is definitely described as an educator=2C so I =
have to decide whether to transliterate it or translate it. I don't think =
"Doctor" is as well known a term among followers of the Roman church and I =
think I prefer a translation in this instance.
ghItlh Qov:
> {bISop} Qel je {San =91ISIDor} =91ej nuboQ =91e=92 wIqoy=92. > The =91ej=
in this sentence seems misplaced. Is the sentence supposed to be:> nuboQ {=
bISop} Qel je {San =91ISIDor} =91e=92 wIqoy=92.
DopDaq qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' - I left out a verb. It was supposed to s=
ay: {bISop} Qel je ghaH {San 'ISIDor'e'} 'ej nuboQ 'e' wIqoy'.
Though=2C the apposition might be better=2C so I'm actually going to go wit=
h Qov's.
> yIghoSmoH --> tIghoSmoH
HIja'
> wIghomboghvaD =96 the -vaD belongs on the noun=2C not the verb=2C and sho=
uldn=92t it be DI-?
I wasn't sure about the {-vaD}=2C so I checked in TKD and it only said=2C "=
The whole construction (relative clause plus head noun)=2C as a unit=2C is =
used in a sentence as a noun." But if you say the {-vaD} goes on the actua=
l noun=2C I'm happy to go with that. I'll address {wI-} vs. {DI-} below.
> Review the rules for Hoch: you may find you need nuvpu=92 to convey the m=
eaning you want.
I think I actually prefer {Hoch nuv}=2C but {Hoch nuvpu'} does more closely=
match the originals. I have no way to support this=2C but I felt like {Ho=
ch nuv} should use {wI-} and {Hoch nuvpu'} should use {DI-}.
ghItlh ghunchu'wI':
> <pIrurmeH juchenmoH> vImaS.
It feels a little like it could be an explanation of why he didn't give the=
job to one of his underlings=2C but I don't have any strong objections to =
it=2C so I'll change it.
> I don't like how {SoHvo' boghbogh puqloD} seems to imply> a physical "bor=
n from" which would naturally apply to the mother.> I think {puqloD Daboghm=
oHbogh} works a lot better. Also=2C {neH}> here feels inappropriate to me. =
Perhaps {mob} would be preferable.
I'm fine with your sentence suggestion=2C but {mob} seems to imply more of =
a "lonely" type of alone and {neH} a "singularly" type of alone. Am I alon=
e in that or do any of the advance speakers disagree with ghunchu'wI' here?
> [I thought {QIStoS} was the accepted transliteration=2C but I'm not a stu=
dent of the original Greek text.]
As I said previously (though you may have missed it)=2C for this project I =
am ignoring the Greek texts (which definitely end the title in "s")=2C sinc=
e this prayer was actually written in Liturgical Latin and English. In the=
Roman church=2C a number of different variations are used (I imagine they =
are declensions of the Latin)=2C but as I looked through the various transl=
ations on Fr. Z's blog=2C the most common transliterations ended in "o".
> Instead of a {ghaHbogh} phrase=2C simple apposition ought to work: {joH'a=
'ma'vo' QISto'vo'}. Skybox SP1 gives a perfect example of> this=2C with the=
phrase {juHqo'vo' Qo'noSvo'}.
The {ghaHbogh} phrase bothered me=2C but I wasn't comfortable for how I sho=
uld do apposition. I'll change it.
ghItlh voragh:
> FYI: from KGT (p. 152f.) we have the slang term {Ho'} "idol=2C someone wo=
rthy of emulation" which might work for saint.
It certainly seems like a likely definition to be used by Romans=2C though=
=2C being a follower of a reformed church myself=2C I would prefer {choqwI'=
}. However=2C the Romans tend to use variation of the Latin rather than tr=
anslate it and that holds true for the majority of the translations on Fr. =
Z's page.
So here's where I am now:
weQmoQnaQDaq bIrarpa' tayvam yIjatlh:
'o Qun'a'=2C SoH HoS law' Hoch HoS puS 'ej reH bItaHtaH. pIrurmeH juchenmo=
H. Hoch QaQ=2C Hoch teH=2C Hoch 'IH je DInej 'e' Dara'. puqloD DaboghmoHb=
ogh neH ghaH {yeSu' QISto''e'} 'ej Qun porgh ghaH 'ej joH'a'ma' ghaH. ghaH=
Daq QaQwI'=2C teHwI'=2C 'IHwI' je DInejnIS je. nuboQ {bISop} ghojmoHwI' je=
{San 'ISIDor} 'e' wIqoy'. weQmoQnaQDaq malengtaHvIS ghopDu'majvaD mInDu'm=
ajvaD je nIbelmoHbogh Dochmey neH tIghoSmoH 'ej Hoch nuvpu' DIghomboghvaD g=
hoberghHa'moH 'ej ghotuvmoH. joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo' wItlhob. {'amen}.
Jeremy =
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'><div>ghItlh voragh:</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: =
21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></=
span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15p=
x=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=
=2C 255)=3B">>=3B Was Isidor a medical doctor - i.e. a physician {Qel} - =
or a doctor of philosophy? If the</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=
=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B backgrou=
nd-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"> =3Blatter=2C call him a {ghojmoHw=
I'} "teacher". As</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68=
)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-col=
or: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">>=3B someone =3B</span><span style=3D"=
color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.2999992370=
60547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">pointed out earlier=
a bishop is etymologically an overseer=2C so either {vu'wI'} "manager" or =
{loHwI'} "magistrate" (lit.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=
=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">>=3B "administrator") work.</s=
pan></div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=
=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=
=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255=
=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=
=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">"Bishop" is a specialized term an=
d all of the translations on Fr. Z's page use one of the various transliter=
ations of it=2C so I am happy to do the same.  =3BAs for "Doctor"=2C I =
am much less familiar with Latin and didn't realize that it actually meant =
teacher.  =3BAs far as I can tell=2C Isidore was not a medical physicia=
n=2C but is =3Bdefinitely =3Bdescribed as an educator=2C so I have =
to decide whether to transliterate it or translate it.  =3BI don't thin=
k "Doctor" is as =3Bwell known a term =3Bamong =3Bfollowers of =
the Roman church and I think I prefer a translation in this instance.</span=
></font></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B"><br></span></d=
iv><div><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=3B">ghItlh Qov:</span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B fon=
t-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B"><br></span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-si=
ze: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B">>=3B {bISop} Qel je {San =91ISI=
Dor} =91ej nuboQ =91e=92 wIqoy=92.  =3B</span></div><div><div class=3D"=
ecxWordSection1"><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=
=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bbackground:whi=
te=3B">>=3B =3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B fo=
nt-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B=
">The =91ej in this sentence seems misplaced. Is the sentence supposed to b=
e:</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfo=
nt-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B=
">>=3B =3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-fa=
mily: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B">nub=
oQ {bISop} Qel je {San =91ISIDor} =91e=92 wIqoy=92.</span></p><p class=3D"e=
cxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier =
New"=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 15px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">DopDaq =
qul yIchenmoH QobDI' ghu' - I left out a verb.  =3BIt was supposed to s=
ay:  =3B{bISop} Qel je ghaH {San 'ISIDor'e'} 'ej nuboQ 'e' wIqoy'.</spa=
n></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Cour=
ier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=
=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D=
"#333333" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255=2C =
255=2C 255)=3B"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B">Though=2C the =3Bapp=
osition =3Bmight be better=2C so I'm actually going to go with Qov's.</=
span></span></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#333333" fa=
ce=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B background-color: rgb(=
255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font=
-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B">>=3B yIghoSmoH -->=3B tIgh=
oSmoH</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 5=
1=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B background-c=
olor: white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=
=3B background-color: white=3B">HIja'</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3B=
color:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=
=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B">>=3B =3B</span><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: =
11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B">wIghomboghvaD =96 the -vaD belongs on=
the noun=2C not the verb=2C and shouldn=92t it be DI-?</span></p><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family:=
'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: white=3B"><br></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=2C 51=2C 51)=
=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B background-color: wh=
ite=3B">I wasn't sure about the {-vaD}=2C so I checked in TKD and it only s=
aid=2C "The whole construction (relative clause plus head noun)=2C as a uni=
t=2C is used in a sentence as a noun."  =3BBut if you say the {-vaD} go=
es on the actual noun=2C I'm happy to go with that.  =3BI'll address {w=
I-} vs. {DI-} below.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bb=
ackground:white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bcolor:#333333=
=3Bbackground:white=3B">>=3B =3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(51=
=2C 51=2C 51)=3B font-family: 'Courier New'=3B font-size: 11.5pt=3B backgro=
und-color: white=3B">Review the rules for Hoch: you may find you need nuvpu=
=92 to convey the meaning you want.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bco=
lor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=
=3Bcolor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B">I think I actually prefer {Hoch nuv=
}=2C but {Hoch nuvpu'} does more closely match the originals.  =3BI hav=
e no way to support this=2C but I felt like {Hoch nuv} should use {wI-} and=
{Hoch nuvpu'} should use {DI-}.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bcolor=
:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11.5pt=3Bfont-family:"=3BCourier New"=3B=3Bc=
olor:#333333=3Bbackground:white=3B">ghItlh ghunchu'wI':</span></p><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 1=
5px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 25=
5=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547=
px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">>=3B <=3BpIrurmeH ju=
chenmoH>=3B vImaS.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.2999992370605=
47px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: =
15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 2=
55=2C 255)=3B">It feels a little like it could be an explanation of why he =
didn't give the job to one of his underlings=2C but I don't have any strong=
objections to it=2C so I'll change it.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-heigh=
t: 21.299999237060547px=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.2=
99999237060547px=3B"><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255=
)=3B">>=3B =3B</span>I</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68=
)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B"> =3Bdon't=
like how {SoHvo' boghbogh puqloD} seems to imply</span></p><p class=3D"ecx=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B =
line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">>=3B a physical "</span><span style=
=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999=
237060547px=3B">born from" which would naturally apply to the mother.</span=
></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B=
font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">>=3B I think&nb=
sp=3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B=
line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">{puqloD DaboghmoHbogh} works a lot b=
etter. Also=2C {neH}</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"col=
or: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.2999992370605=
47px=3B">>=3B here feels =3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=
=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">inappro=
priate to me. Perhaps {mob} would be preferable.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxM=
soNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B l=
ine-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255=
)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=
=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">I'm fine with your sentence sugg=
estion=2C but {mob} seems to imply more of a "lonely" type of alone and {ne=
H} a "singularly" type of alone.  =3BAm I alone in that or do any of th=
e advance speakers disagree with ghunchu'wI' here?</span></p><p class=3D"ec=
xMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B=
line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 2=
55)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B =
background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">>=3B [I thought {QIStoS} was=
the accepted transliteration=2C but I'm not a =3B</span><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237=
060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">student of the ori=
ginal Greek text.]</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color=
: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547=
px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B=
line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 2=
55)=3B">As I said previously (though you may have missed it)=2C for this pr=
oject I am ignoring the Greek texts (which definitely end the title in "s")=
=2C since this prayer was actually written in Liturgical Latin and English.=
 =3BIn the Roman church=2C a number of different variations are used (=
I imagine they are declensions of the Latin)=2C but as I looked through the=
various translations on Fr. Z's blog=2C the most common transliterations e=
nded in "o".</span></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.29999923706054=
7px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 1=
5px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 25=
5=2C 255)=3B">>=3B Instead of a {ghaHbogh} phrase=2C simple apposition ou=
ght to work: =3B</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B fon=
t-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(=
255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">{joH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo'}. Skybox SP1 gives a perfect=
example of</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(6=
8=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B b=
ackground-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">>=3B this=2C =3B</span><s=
pan style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: =
21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">with t=
he phrase {juHqo'vo' Qo'noSvo'}.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.2=
99999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span=
></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B=
font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: =
rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">The {ghaHbogh} phrase bothered me=2C but I wasn'=
t comfortable for how I should do apposition.  =3BI'll change it.</span=
></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B=
font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: =
rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.29=
9999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">ghItlh vora=
gh:</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=
=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B backgrou=
nd-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-hei=
ght: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">&=
gt=3B FYI: from KGT (p. 152f.) we have the slang term {Ho'} "idol=2C someon=
e worthy of emulation" which might work for saint.</span></p><p class=3D"ec=
xMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B=
line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 2=
55)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(=
68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B =
background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">It certainly seems like a like=
ly definition to be used by Romans=2C though=2C being a follower of a refor=
med church myself=2C I would prefer {choqwI'}.  =3BHowever=2C the Roman=
s tend to use variation of the Latin rather than translate it and that hold=
s true for the majority of the translations on Fr. Z's page.</span></p><p c=
lass=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-siz=
e: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=
=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(68=2C 68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237=
060547px=3B background-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B">So here's where I =
am now:</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(68=2C=
68=2C 68)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B backg=
round-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B"><br></span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNo=
rmal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B line-height=
: 21.299999237060547px=3B">weQmoQnaQDaq bIrarpa' tayvam yIjatlh:</span></fo=
nt></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B"><br></span></font></p=
><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"backgroun=
d-color: rgb(255=2C 255=2C 255)=3B font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.29999=
9237060547px=3B"></span></font></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D=
"#444444"><span style=3D"font-size: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547=
px=3B">'o Qun'a'=2C SoH HoS law' Hoch HoS puS 'ej reH bItaHtaH.  =3BpIr=
urmeH juchenmoH.  =3BHoch QaQ=2C Hoch teH=2C Hoch 'IH je DInej 'e' Dara=
'.  =3BpuqloD DaboghmoHbogh neH ghaH {yeSu' QISto''e'} 'ej Qun porgh gh=
aH 'ej joH'a'ma' ghaH.  =3BghaHDaq QaQwI'=2C teHwI'=2C 'IHwI' je DInejn=
IS je.  =3BnuboQ {bISop} ghojmoHwI' je {San 'ISIDor} 'e' wIqoy'.  =
=3BweQmoQnaQDaq malengtaHvIS ghopDu'majvaD mInDu'majvaD je nIbelmoHbogh Doc=
hmey neH tIghoSmoH 'ej Hoch nuvpu' DIghomboghvaD ghoberghHa'moH 'ej ghotuvm=
oH.  =3BjoH'a'ma'vo' QISto'vo' wItlhob.  =3B{'amen}.</span></font><=
/p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze: 15px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B"><br></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><font color=3D"#444444"><span style=3D"font-size: 15=
px=3B line-height: 21.299999237060547px=3B">Jeremy</span></font></p></div><=
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