[99045] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Rape
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Brent Kesler)
Wed Jun 25 09:14:55 2014
In-Reply-To: <BLU436-SMTP73A2095EE310C395A1628CD2190@phx.gbl>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:14:44 -0400
From: Brent Kesler <brent.of.all.people@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Gaerfindel <gaerfindel@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/25/2014 12:15 AM, Alan Anderson wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Gaerfindel <gaerfindel@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> be'nalwI' Dangagh 'ej ghIbbe'qu'!!! - "You mated with my wife and she did
>>> NOT consent!!!"
>>>
>> I'm curious what others would think if {ngagh} were replaced by {nga'}
>> there.
>>
>> The first part would certainly have to be recast some:
>
> Sunga'chuq be'balwI' SoH je...
>
I've always thought the vague "always subject" note on {nga'chuq} was more
of a cultural note than a grammar note. {nga'chuq} treats both parties as
equal participants, while having a subject {?nga'} an object implies some
sort of power relationship. I imagine that Proper Klingons would only use
{nga'chuq}, while transitive {?nga'} is used exclusively by the vulgar.
Even if the "always subject" note is grammatical rather than cultural, the
apparent structure of {nga'chuq} invites word play, especially in this
context.
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Bellerophon, modeler <
bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, the human male's motivation for rape (the cowardly exercise of power
> over the helpless) is not likely to be shared by the Klingon male. While
> some Klingons lack honor, committing rape seems particularly dishonorable.
> Of course, that is a human perspective.
>
I think whenever we talk about Klingon honor, we fall into the "No True
Scotsman" fallacy:
Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his *Glasgow Morning
Herald* and seeing an article about how the "Brighton [(England)] Sex
Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman
would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his *Glasgow
Morning Herald* again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen
[(Scotland)] man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem
almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion
but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true
Scotsman would do such a thing". <
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman>
I don't care how strict their warrior code is. A culture that worships
strength is going to have some pointlessly cruel people. Heck, even
Buddhists in Myanmar have had pogroms against Muslims, while Buddhists in
Sri Lanka considered their war against the Tamil minority a sort of holy
war, and the Buddha was pretty clear that killing--even for *food*--went
against the Eightfold Path.
The whole reason warrior societies develop codes of honor in the first
place is to restrain the violence of its warriors. I'm willing to believe
that Klingons are generally more devoted to their traditions than others,
but not that they've perfected virtue.
bI'reng
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 25, 2014 at 5:47 AM, Gaerfindel <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gaerfindel@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gaerfindel@hotmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">On 6/25/2014 12:15 AM, Alan Anderson wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Gaerfindel <<a href=3D"mailto:gaerfinde=
l@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gaerfindel@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
be'nalwI' Dangagh 'ej ghIbbe'qu'!!! - "You mated w=
ith my wife and she did<br>
NOT consent!!!"<br>
</blockquote>
I'm curious what others would think if {ngagh} were replaced by {nga=
9;} there.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>
The first part would certainly have to be recast some:<br>
<br>
Sunga'chuq be'balwI' SoH je...<br></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>I've always thought the vague "always subject&q=
uot; note on {nga'chuq} was more of a cultural note than a grammar note=
. {nga'chuq} treats both parties as equal participants, while having a =
subject {?nga'} an object implies some sort of power relationship. I im=
agine that Proper Klingons would only use {nga'chuq}, while transitive =
{?nga'} is used exclusively by the vulgar.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Even if the "always subject" note is grammati=
cal rather than cultural, the apparent structure of {nga'chuq} invites =
word play, especially in this context.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
<div>On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Bellerophon, modeler=C2=A0<span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com</a>></span>=C2=A0wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Also, the human male's motivation for rape (the c=
owardly exercise of power over the helpless) is not likely to be shared by =
the Klingon male. While some Klingons lack honor, committing rape seems par=
ticularly dishonorable. Of course, that is a human perspective.</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>I think whenever we talk about=
Klingon honor, we fall into the "No True Scotsman" fallacy:</div=
><div><br></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;bo=
rder:none;padding:0px">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Imagine Hamish McDona=
ld, a Scotsman, sitting down with his <i>Glasgow Morning Herald</i> and see=
ing an article about how the "Brighton [(England)] Sex Maniac Strikes =
Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do=
such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his <i>Glasgow Morni=
ng Herald</i> again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen [(S=
cotland)] man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost=
gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is h=
e going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsma=
n would do such a thing". <<a href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=
No_true_Scotsman">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman</a>></di=
v>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div></div></blockquote>I don't care ho=
w strict their warrior code is. A culture that worships strength is going t=
o have some pointlessly cruel people. Heck, even Buddhists in Myanmar have =
had pogroms against Muslims, while Buddhists in Sri Lanka considered their =
war against the Tamil minority a sort of holy war, and the Buddha was prett=
y clear that killing--even for <i>food</i>--went against the Eightfold Path=
.<div>
<br></div><div>The whole reason warrior societies develop codes of honor in=
the first place is to restrain the violence of its warriors. I'm willi=
ng to believe that Klingons are generally more devoted to their traditions =
than others, but not that they've perfected virtue.<br>
<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><=
div>bI'reng</div></div></div></div></div></div>
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