[98811] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Rant about verbs of motion
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Jun 9 23:00:37 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 21:00:08 -0600
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Marc, rut HughlIj vI'uchchoH vIneH.
In TKD, the most accessible work of canon for beginners, and the foundation
of everything we know about Klingon, you clearly explained the use of jaH
and -Daq with sentences like pa'Daq yIjaH Go to the room! You repeated this
in CK with teplIj yIwoH 'ej pa'lIjDaq yIjaH, in PK with naDevvo' vaS'a'Daq
majaHlaH'a'? and in TKW with may'Daq jaHDI' SuvwI' juppu'Daj lonbe'. It was
perhaps the clearest, best documented canon use of a word we had.
And then in what may be the clearest, most expansive interview you have
given, you threw that away, stating with unambiguous examples that "the
prefix makes the difference in meaning. {jI-} means I'm moving along in
someplace. {vI-} means I'm moving along to someplace."
So Marc, while I get that it's nice to be able to distinguish between
locative and accusative, and understand that you don't want to be tied in
2014 to what you wrote about our language in 1987, how the fuck am I
supposed to tell beginners that they should say pa' vIjaH when you told
them, in the only reference they own, to say pa'Daq jIjaH?
You did it again with chegh. ghorgh pa'wIjDaq jIchegh. (PK) became lupDujHom
vIchegh "I return to the shuttle."
I don't know wtf you were doing with CH:pa' jIyIt'a'.
And you, you reading this, because Marc isn't, if you interview Marc, and
ask him a question without presenting him with a complete list of ways he
has canonically used a word in the past, then you are guilty of this too. Is
the reason we don't have more beginners learning this language that it has
turned into an unknowable morass of bonkers redirection? No, it's because
kids these days don't learn things from books. I'm desperately trying to
address this, and becoming increasingly more desperate, as I survey what is
out there as try to come up with something honest, simple and correct to
tell these poor learners about how to use jaH. Or yIt. Or -Daq.
Also qurgh and Holtej haven't answered their e-mails lately, probably
because I've been harassing them and I'm weathered into a tiny northern town
and yuch vIneH. 'ej qen Hegh 'e'mamwI' 'a Hopmo' ghaH nol nablu'meH
jIjeSlaHchu'be'mo' jImogh.
yuch vInejmeH Qe'Daq jIjaH XXXXXXXXX Qe' vIjaH.
I'm really okay here, and I can't expect instant e-mail replies but if you
happen to be in High Level, Alberta, I could use a hug.
pItlh.
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Marc, =
rut HughlIj vI</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">’uchchoH vIneH.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">In TKD, the most accessible work of canon for =
beginners, and the foundation of everything we know about Klingon, you =
clearly e</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">xplained the use of jaH and –Daq with sentences =
like</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">pa’Daq yIjaH</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> Go to the =
room!</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> You =
repeated this in CK with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">teplIj yIwoH ‘ej pa’lIjDaq =
yIjaH</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">, in =
PK with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">naDevvo’ vaS’a’Daq =
majaHlaH’a’?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">and =
in TKW with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">may’Daq jaHDI’ SuvwI’ juppu’Daj =
lonbe’.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">It =
was perhaps the cleares</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">t, =
best documented</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">canon =
use of a word we had.<BR>
<BR>
And then in what may be the cleares</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">t,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> most expansive interview you have =
given, you</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">threw =
that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">a</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">wa</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">y, =
stating</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">with =
unambiguous examples that</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">“</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">t</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">he =
prefix makes the difference in meaning. {jI-} means =
I'm</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">moving along in someplace. {vI-} means I'm moving along =
to</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">someplace.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">“</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">So Marc, while =
I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">get that =
it’s nice to be able to distinguish between locative and =
accusative, and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">understand that you don</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">’t want to be tied in 2014 =
to what you wrote about our language in 1987, how the fuck am I supposed =
to tell beginners that they should say pa’ vIjaH when you told =
them, in the only reference they own, to say pa</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">’Daq =
jIjaH?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> =
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">You did it =
again with chegh.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">ghorgh pa’wIjDaq jIchegh.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> (PK) became</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">lupDujHom vIchegh =
"I return to the shuttle."</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">I don’t know wtf you were doing =
with</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">CH:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">pa’ jIyIt’a’.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">And you, you reading this, because Marc =
isn’t, if you interview Marc, and ask him a question without =
presenting him with a complete list of ways he has canonically used a =
word in the past, then you are guilty of this too.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">s the reason we don’t have =
more beginners learning this language that it has turned into an =
unknowable morass of bonkers redirection?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">No, it’s because kids these =
days don’t learn things from books. I’m desperately trying =
to address this, and becoming increasingly more =
desperate</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">, as =
I survey</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">what =
is out there as try to come up with something honest, simple and correct =
to tell these poor learners about how to use jaH.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> Or yIt. Or =
–Daq.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">A</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">lso qurgh and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">Holtej</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> haven’t answered their =
e-mails</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> =
lately,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">probably</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">because I’ve been harassing them =
and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">I’m =
weathered into a tiny northern town and yuch vIneH.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> ‘ej qen Hegh =
‘e’mamwI’ ‘a Hopmo’ ghaH nol =
nablu’meH jIjeSlaHchu’be’</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">mo’ =
jImogh.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">yuch vInejmeH Qe’Daq jIjaH XXXXXXXXX =
Qe</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">’ =
vIjaH.<BR>
<BR>
I’m really okay here, and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">I</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">can’t expect instant e-mail</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> replies</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> but if you happen to be in High =
Level, Alberta, I could use a hug.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">pItlh.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
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