[98715] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Objects with -moH
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Mon Jun 2 02:49:08 2014
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "tlhIngan Hol mailing list" <tlhIngan-Hol@kli.org>
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 23:48:47 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Below is an excerpt from the online course lesson where I introduce -moH. My
aim is to keep my own opinions out of the course, and to teach the student
only what we KNOW, for the most part avoiding the unknown entirely. It's not
really fair to introduce -moH and not mention anything about using it with
indirect objects. Canon and some previous discussions are referenced at the
bottom. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here.
I'm not looking for more opinions or theories or justifications on how -moH
should work. The existence of civil disagreement among competent Klingonists
is enough for me not to declare for one idea or the other. The suffix -vaD
is not included in the level one grammar, so there's no reason to go there.
I'm just checking that I haven't missed some canon that resolves this, and
for opinions-expert or beginner-on the level of information included. Is
there more beginners should know? Should I be more terse and simply say that
canon is ambiguous on the object of this type of verb?
---
Things can get more complicated when -moH is used on a verb that could
already take an object. This is an area where we don't have all the answers.
For example, the word <ghojmoH> is formed from <ghoj> "learn" plus -moH, and
means "cause to learn", normally translated as "teach, instruct." It even
has its own listing in TKD as such. But what is the object of ghojmoH?
Is it the student? That would seem to make sense.
ghoj puq. - The child learns.
?puq ghojmoH SoS. - The mother causes the child to learn./The mother teaches
the child.
We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power Klingon we hear
the form <qaghojmoH> I instruct you.
Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced trading
card, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily change when -moH is
added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be the same as the object of
ghoj: the thing learned.
pab ghoj puq. - The child learns grammar.
?pab ghojmoH SoS. - The mother teaches grammar.
Maybe it can be either. We have other tools for indicating the second object
of the verb, but they, and a full discussion of this question, are beyond
the scope of this course. The purpose of this digression is to explain why
this course doesn't include instructions on using such objects, and to give
you some insight into how we know things about the Klingon language.
Reference:
TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause
Skybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
Power Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH
Okrand MSN <http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=edit&redlink=1> , 6/97 -
Prefix trick
Also perused:
http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=556.25;wap2
http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069
http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042
- Qov
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<TITLE>Objects with -moH</TITLE>
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<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Below is an =
excerpt from the</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">online course lesson where I introduce =
–moH.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> My =
aim is to keep my own opinions out of the course, and to teach the =
student</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">only =
what we KNOW, for the most part avoiding the unknown entirely. =
It’s not really fair to introduce –moH</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">and</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">not mention anything about using =
it with indirect objects.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">Canon</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> and some previous discussions are referenced at the =
bottom.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> I am =
not trying to reinvent the wheel here.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">I’m not looking for more =
o</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">pinions or =
theories or justifications on how –moH should work. The existence =
of civil disagreement among competent Klingonists is enough for me not =
to declare for o</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">ne idea or the other. The suffix –vaD is not =
included in the level one grammar, so there’s no reason to go =
there. I’m just checking that I haven’t missed some canon =
that resolves this</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">, and for opinions-expert or beginner—on the =
leve</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">l of =
information</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">included. Is there more beginners should =
know?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Should I =
be more terse and simply say that canon is ambiguous on the object of =
this type of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">verb?</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">---</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Things can get more complicated when –moH =
is used on a verb that could already take an object. This is an area =
where we don't have all the answers. For example</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">, the word <</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">ghojmoH</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> is formed from</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"><</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">ghoj</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">“</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">learn</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">”</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"> plus –moH, and =
means</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">“</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">cause to learn</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">”</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">, normally translated as</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">“</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">teach, =
instruct.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">”</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> It even has its own listing in TKD as such. But what =
is the object of ghojmoH? </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Is it the =
student? That would seem to make sense. <BR>
ghoj puq. – The child learns.<BR>
?puq ghojmoH SoS. – The mother causes the child to learn./The =
mother teaches the child.<BR>
We have evidence that this is the correct form, as in Power =
Klingon</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> <FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">we hear the form</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> =
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri"><</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">qaghojmoH</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> I instruct you.<BR>
<BR>
Confusingly, we also have text written by Marc Okrand on a licenced =
trading card, which suggests that the object doesn't necessarily change =
when –moH is added to a verb. The object of ghojmoH may be =
the same as the object of ghoj: the thing learned.<BR>
<BR>
pab ghoj puq. – The child learns grammar.<BR>
?pab ghojmoH SoS. – The mother teaches grammar.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Maybe it can be =
either. We have other tools for indicating the second object of the =
verb, but they, and a full discussion of this question, are beyond the =
scope of this course. The purpose of this digression is to explain why =
this course doesn't include instructions on using such objects, and to =
give you some insight into how we know things about the Klingon =
language.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri">Reference:</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">TKD 4.2.4 p.38 Type 4: Cause<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Skybox card S20 - ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">Power Klingon - batlh qaghojmoH<BR>
Okrand</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> </SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://mughom.wikia.com/wiki/MSN?action=3Dedit&redlink=3D1"><=
SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier =
New">MSN</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">, 6/97 – Prefix =
trick</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">Also =
perused:<BR>
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;wap2"><SP=
AN LANG=3D"en-ca"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Calibri">http://www.klingon.org/smboard/index.php?topic=3D556.25;=
wap2</FONT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></A><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Calibri">http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/85069</FO=
NT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"></FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><BR>
</SPAN><A =
HREF=3D"http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042"><SPAN =
LANG=3D"en-ca"><U><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" =
FACE=3D"Calibri">http://diswww.mit.edu/charon.MIT.EDU/ja%27chuq/93042</FO=
NT></U></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></A><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT =
FACE=3D"Calibri"> </FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"> </SPAN></P>
<P DIR=3DLTR><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri">- =
Qov</FONT></SPAN><SPAN LANG=3D"en-ca"></SPAN></P>
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