[98409] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bellerophon, modeler)
Mon Apr 14 11:58:39 2014
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 11:57:56 -0400
From: "Bellerophon, modeler" <bellerophon.modeler@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 11:15 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
PRESENT PERFECT TENSE: Daleghpu' (describes an action as having occurred
> prior to the time context)
>
> The last one has tense involved. Maybe Okrand goofed and didn't realize
> it, I dunno. But there are examples out there in which "completion" isn't
> what the sentence is supposed to be about. We know {Daleghpu'} isn't
> supposed to mean "you completed seeing it; you saw the whole thing." It
> just means "you saw it in the past."
>
I'm not convinced the convenient translation "You saw it" means that {legh}
is not a verb that can have both continuous and perfective
aspects. Consider *Where's Waldo?* One might say, {Waldo DaleghtaH 'ach wej
Daleghta'} In English, we sometimes emphasize the perfective aspect of
perception with semantic games: "You're looking at it, but you don't see
it," or, "You saw it, but you didn't look at it."
A verb with a time stamp and without a Type 7 suffix also tells you that
> the verb is not completed and is not continuous.
>
> {wa'Hu' yaS qIp puq} CANNOT mean "yesterday the child hit the officer" as
> a single act. That would be perfective, completed, a simple whole, and
> would require -pu' or -ta'. It CAN mean "yesterday the child hit the
> officer [on and off]."
>
Are you asserting that the lack of an aspect marker implies the aspect of
ongoing, discontinuous action? Then must we say {meQtaH qach} as opposed to
{meQ qach}, to make sure the listener understands that the house is not
burning intermittently?
~'eD
--
My modeling blog: http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/
My other modeling blog: http://bellerophon.blog.com/
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans=
-serif;font-size:16px">On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 11:15 PM, SuStel=C2=A0<span =
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">s=
ustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>=C2=A0wrote:</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
16px"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-sty=
le:solid;padding-left:1ex">
PRESENT PERFECT TENSE: Daleghpu' (describes an action as having occurre=
d prior to the time context)<br><br>The last one has tense involved. Maybe =
Okrand goofed and didn't realize it, I dunno. But there are examples ou=
t there in which "completion" isn't what the sentence is supp=
osed to be about. We know {Daleghpu'} isn't supposed to mean "=
you completed seeing it; you saw the whole thing." It just means "=
;you saw it in the past."<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'm not convinced the convenient trans=
lation "You saw it" means that {legh} is not a verb that can have=
both continuous and perfective aspects.=C2=A0Consider=C2=A0<u>Where's =
Waldo?</u>=C2=A0One might say, {Waldo DaleghtaH 'ach wej Daleghta'}=
In English, we sometimes emphasize the perfective aspect of perception wit=
h semantic games: "You're looking at it, but you don't see it,=
" or, "You saw it, but you didn't look at it."</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">A verb with a time stamp and without a Type=
7 suffix also tells you that the verb is not completed and is not continuo=
us.<br>
<br>{wa'Hu' yaS qIp puq} CANNOT mean "yesterday the child hit =
the officer" as a single act. That would be perfective, completed, a s=
imple whole, and would require -pu' or -ta'. It CAN mean "yest=
erday the child hit the officer [on and off]."<br>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Are you asserting that the lack of an aspe=
ct marker implies the aspect of ongoing, discontinuous action? Then must we=
say {meQtaH qach} as opposed to {meQ qach}, to make sure the listener unde=
rstands that the house is not burning intermittently?</div>
</div><br style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px">~'eD</span><br clear=
=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>My modeling blog:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.=
com/" target=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon-modeler.blogspot.com/</a><br>
My other modeling blog:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"http://bellerophon.blog.com/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://bellerophon.blog.com/</a><br>
</div>
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