[98405] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh)
Sun Apr 13 21:28:11 2014
From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2014 21:27:45 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <001d01cf56ca$9e3eebe0$dabcc3a0$@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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What I=92m about to say is not intended to be an argument, or an attempt =
to establish my authority over this area of grammar. I=92m just trying =
to explain more clearly than I have in the past the way I=92ve always =
seen this.
English has three tenses. Every verb expression in English needs to have =
the =93right=94 tense, or you=92ve made a grammatical mistake. It is =
formal and necessary when speaking or writing every English sentence.
Meanwhile, tense is very vague. There=92s now (present tense), before =
now (past tense) and after now (future tense).
Klingon has no tense. Or it has an infinite number of tenses, depending =
on how you see it.
When it comes to time, =93A Klingon may be inaccurate, but he is never =
approximate.=94
In other words, any sentence I express in Klingon may have a time stamp =
or not. There is no grammatical requirement for there to be one. =
Instead, if time is important to that expression, you express it =
explicitly as a time stamp, or through context (like the implied =93now=94=
in an active conversation, like if I say, =93Hand me that disruptor!=94 =
I should not have to add =93Now=94, because context really ought to give =
you enough clue about that).
The perfective suffixes have nothing to do with tense.
I want to be clear about this.
Tense refers to the span of time while the action of a verb happens.
The Perfective refers not to the action of a verb, but instead to the =
completion of the action of the verb. The action has a duration, but the =
completion is an event.=20
So, a verb with a time stamp and without a perfective suffix tells you =
the time the action of the verb occurs. A verb with a time stamp with a =
perfective suffix tells you when the completion of the action of the =
verb occurs.
In other words, does the time stamp refer to the action of the verb, or =
the completion of the verb at that time? With {-taH} , you have a time =
stamp and you know that the completion of the action of the verb hasn=92t =
happened yet and it=92s not particularly foreseeable from here from the =
time perspective of the time stamp. With {-lI=92} the completion hasn=92t =
happened at the time stamp, but there is a conscious goal of completion =
at that time, with the completion of it expected within a reasonable =
sense of =93soon=94. The time stamp is =93here=94, and I can see the =
completion =93from here."
With {-pu=92}, the time stamp refers to the completion of the action. =
Not to the action of the verb. To it=92s completion.
With {-ta=92}, the time stamp refers to the completion of the action, =
and the intent or sense of mission behind that completion.
Completion is a big deal in Klingon. The grammar bends to it, just as =
English grammar bends to tense.
Now, that=92s the ideal of how I thought this language should work with =
no tense, but with perfective suffixes. That said, I get frustrated with =
some canon because it seems sloppy on this point. The language would =
have been cooler if the canon had been more precise in this time =
framework.
So, I think that sometimes, the perfective has been used to express that =
at the time stamp the completion of the action of the verb was in the =
past. And that makes everything muddier. I don=92t like it.
But this isn=92t my language, and the guy whose language it is doesn=92t =
apparently care enough to preserve this cool way the language could have =
been.
So, based on canon, it appears that when a verb has a time stamp and a =
perfective suffix, the time stamp indicates either a time duration or =
event during which the completion of the verb occurs (the cool way the =
language could have been precise), or the time stamp indicates a time =
frame when the completion of the action is in the past (the sloppy way =
the language was allowed to evolve).
lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:44 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn@flyingstart.ca> =
wrote:
> > Could one not say {wa'leS ghaH HoHlu'pu'}, indicating that by =
tomorrow he will have gotten himself killed? This sentence uses =
perfective
> > but not in any past sense, Klingon cultural attitudes toward =
counting one's chickens notwithstanding. If grammar allows such a =
construction, it > would divorce -pu' and -ta' from any connection with =
the past, except insofar as the past is more somewhat more certain than =
the future.
>=20
> I don=92t think there is any controversy about that sentence. It =
parallels ghorgh tujchoHpu=92 bIQ? I don=92t believe anyone is arguing =
that perfective implies past or past requires perfective, and if they =
were, I would think they were wrong.
> =20
> The controversial area is:
> If an action is single and completed, is a timestamp sufficient, or =
does it also require a perfective aspect suffix?
> Can <DuqIp=92a=92?> mean =93Did she hit you?=94 [once] or only =93Does =
she/did she hit you?=94 [generally] or =93Will she hit you?=94
> One of the sticking points is interpretation of the word =93usually=94 =
in the second paragraph of TKD 4.2.7.
> =20
> - Qov
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>What I=92m about to say is not intended to be =
an argument, or an attempt to establish my authority over this area of =
grammar. I=92m just trying to explain more clearly than I have in the =
past the way I=92ve always seen this.</div><div><br></div><div>English =
has three tenses. Every verb expression in English needs to have the =
=93right=94 tense, or you=92ve made a grammatical mistake. It is formal =
and necessary when speaking or writing every English =
sentence.</div><div><br></div><div>Meanwhile, tense is very vague. =
There=92s now (present tense), before now (past tense) and after now =
(future tense).</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon has no tense. Or it has =
an infinite number of tenses, depending on how you see =
it.</div><div><br></div><div>When it comes to time, =93A Klingon may be =
inaccurate, but he is never approximate.=94</div><div><br></div><div>In =
other words, any sentence I express in Klingon may have a time stamp or =
not. There is no grammatical requirement for there to be one. Instead, =
if time is important to that expression, you express it explicitly as a =
time stamp, or through context (like the implied =93now=94 in an active =
conversation, like if I say, =93Hand me that disruptor!=94 I should not =
have to add =93Now=94, because context really ought to give you enough =
clue about that).</div><div><br></div><div>The perfective suffixes have =
nothing to do with tense.</div><div><br></div><div>I want to be clear =
about this.</div><div><br></div><div>Tense refers to the span of time =
while the action of a verb happens.</div><div><br></div><div>The =
Perfective refers not to the action of a verb, but instead to the =
completion of the action of the verb. The action has a duration, but the =
completion is an event. </div><div><br></div><div>So, a verb with a =
time stamp and without a perfective suffix tells you the time the action =
of the verb occurs. A verb with a time stamp with a perfective suffix =
tells you when the completion of the action of the verb =
occurs.</div><div><br></div><div>In other words, does the time stamp =
refer to the action of the verb, or the completion of the verb at that =
time? With {-taH} , you have a time stamp and you know that the =
completion of the action of the verb hasn=92t happened yet and it=92s =
not particularly foreseeable from here from the time perspective of the =
time stamp. With {-lI=92} the completion hasn=92t happened at the time =
stamp, but there is a conscious goal of completion at that time, with =
the completion of it expected within a reasonable sense of =93soon=94. =
The time stamp is =93here=94, and I can see the completion =93from =
here."</div><div><br></div><div>With {-pu=92}, the time stamp refers to =
the completion of the action. Not to the action of the verb. To it=92s =
completion.</div><div><br></div><div>With {-ta=92}, the time stamp =
refers to the completion of the action, and the intent or sense of =
mission behind that completion.</div><div><br></div><div>Completion is a =
big deal in Klingon. The grammar bends to it, just as English grammar =
bends to tense.</div><div><br></div><div>Now, that=92s the ideal of how =
I thought this language should work with no tense, but with perfective =
suffixes. That said, I get frustrated with some canon because it seems =
sloppy on this point. The language would have been cooler if the canon =
had been more precise in this time =
framework.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I think that sometimes, the =
perfective has been used to express that at the time stamp the =
completion of the action of the verb was in the past. And that makes =
everything muddier. I don=92t like it.</div><div><br></div><div>But this =
isn=92t my language, and the guy whose language it is doesn=92t =
apparently care enough to preserve this cool way the language could have =
been.</div><div><br></div><div>So, based on canon, it appears that when =
a verb has a time stamp and a perfective suffix, the time stamp =
indicates either a time duration or event during which the completion of =
the verb occurs (the cool way the language could have been precise), or =
the time stamp indicates a time frame when the completion of the action =
is in the past (the sloppy way the language was allowed to =
evolve).</div><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=92wI=92 nuv =91utlh</div><div>Door Repair Guy, =
Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:44 PM, Robyn Stewart <<a =
href=3D"mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-CA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Could one not say =
{wa'leS ghaH HoHlu'pu'}, indicating that by tomorrow he will have =
gotten himself killed? This sentence uses perfective<span style=3D"color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>but not in any past =
sense, Klingon cultural attitudes toward counting one's chickens =
notwithstanding. If grammar allows such a construction, it<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>would divorce -pu' =
and -ta' from any connection with the past, except insofar as the past =
is more somewhat more certain than the =
future.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br =
clear=3D"all">I don=92t think there is any controversy about that =
sentence. It parallels ghorgh tujchoHpu=92 bIQ? I don=92t believe =
anyone is arguing that perfective implies past or past requires =
perfective, and if they were, I would think they were =
wrong.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The =
controversial area is:<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">If an =
action is single and completed, is a timestamp sufficient, or does it =
also require a perfective aspect suffix?<br>Can <DuqIp=92a=92?> =
mean =93Did she hit you?=94 [once] or only =93Does she/did she hit you?=94=
[generally] or =93Will she hit you?=94<br>One of the sticking points is =
interpretation of the word =93usually=94 in the second paragraph of TKD =
4.2.7.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">- =
Qov<br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div>_____________________________________=
__________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" style=3D"color:=
purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a></div></b=
lockquote></div><br></body></html>=
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