[98389] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Gaerfindel)
Sat Apr 12 16:07:07 2014
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 16:06:30 -0400
From: Gaerfindel <gaerfindel@hotmail.com>
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
In-Reply-To: <00b001cf565f$01df0a70$059d1f50$@flyingstart.ca>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I have always understood Klingons to be inveterate storytellers
(particularly Dahar masters like Kor), and regardless of when they
actually happened (or will happen), their stories are set in the present
tense, giving a sense of immediacy and "being there."
*molor HoH qeyleS.* /Kahless slew Molor./ (We all know this happened
over 1000 years ago.)
~quljIb
On 4/12/2014 10:53 AM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
>
> Ah that is useful to me. I don't have a cassette player anymore. I
> hope my CK cassettes still work.
>
>
> So why do you think Marc Okrand uses the perfective so much more than
> we do? There can easily be something special about hunger and thirst.
> Maybe it's specifically because the time stamp is there in those
> sentences that the perfective isn't used. English has the same rule,
> in fact.
>
>
> I have eaten.
> I ate at five o' clock.
> *I have eaten at five o'clock.
>
> The last one can be used, but only in a context like "I have eaten at
> five o' clock in the past, but usually I eat at eight."
>
> - Qov
>
> *From:*ghunchu'wI' [mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net]
> *Sent:* April 12, 2014 7:23
> *To:* tlhIngan Hol mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past
>
> On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:21 AM, "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca
> <mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca>> wrote:
>
> I've been a huge advocate for a sentence with no aspect
> translatable as simple present, past or future, but canon isn't
> supporting it. Marc has very consistently not used it that way.
>
> Conversational Klingon gives us clear instruction.
>
> *wa'Hu' jIghung.*
>
>
>
> /Yesterday I was hungry./
>
> *DaHjaj jI'oj.*
>
>
>
> /Today I am thirsty./
>
> *wa'leS jIDoy'.*
>
>
>
> /Tomorrow I'll be tired./
>
>
>
>
> This doesn't merely support the "no aspect can be any tense" position.
> It /prescribes/ it.
>
> Our principal example of canonical Klingon narrative, the paq'batlh,
> is extremely consistent in this usage. When context calls for it,
> aspectless verbs in the Klingon are paired with future and past tense
> phrases in the English.
>
> -- ghunchu'wI'
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">I have always understood Klingons to be
inveterate storytellers (particularly Dahar masters like Kor), and
regardless of when they actually happened (or will happen), their
stories are set in the present tense, giving a sense of immediacy
and "being there."<br>
<br>
<b>molor HoH qeyleS.</b> <i>Kahless slew Molor.</i> (We all
know this happened over 1000 years ago.)<br>
<br>
~quljIb<br>
<br>
<br>
On 4/12/2014 10:53 AM, Robyn Stewart wrote:<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ah
that is useful to me. I don’t have a cassette player
anymore. I hope my CK cassettes still work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
So why do you think Marc Okrand uses the perfective so much
more than we do? There can easily be something special
about hunger and thirst. Maybe it’s specifically because the
time stamp is there in those sentences that the perfective
isn’t used. English has the same rule, in fact. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
I have eaten.<br>
I ate at five o’ clock.<br>
*I have eaten at five o’clock. <br>
<br>
The last one can be used, but only in a context like “I have
eaten at five o’ clock in the past, but usually I eat at
eight.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">-
Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> ghunchu'wI' [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net">mailto:qunchuy@alcaco.net</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> April 12, 2014 7:23<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Translating the past<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Apr 12, 2014, at 2:21 AM, "Robyn
Stewart" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:robyn@flyingstart.ca">robyn@flyingstart.ca</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;-webkit-text-size-adjust:
auto">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">I’ve
been a huge advocate for a sentence</span> <span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">with
no aspect translatable as simple present, past</span> <span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">or
future, but</span> <span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:black">canon
isn’t supporting it. Marc has very consistently not used
it that way.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Conversational Klingon gives us clear
instruction. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" style="box-sizing: border-box"
cellpadding="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr style="box-sizing: border-box">
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>wa'Hu' jIghung.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Yesterday I was hungry.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="box-sizing: border-box">
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>DaHjaj jI'oj.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Today I am thirsty.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="box-sizing: border-box">
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>wa'leS jIDoy'.</b><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt;box-sizing:
border-box">
<p class="MsoNormal"><i>Tomorrow I'll be tired.</i><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style="box-sizing: border-box">
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><br>
</td>
<td style="padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt"><br>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">This doesn't merely support the "no
aspect can be any tense" position. It <i>prescribes</i> it.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Our principal example of canonical
Klingon narrative, the paq'batlh, is extremely consistent in
this usage. When context calls for it, aspectless verbs in
the Klingon are paired with future and past tense phrases in
the English. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- ghunchu'wI'<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<br>
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