[98366] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon and feelings for translating be-verbs with
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Mon Apr 7 16:24:10 2014
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <8D12087ABB842FD-A74-331F4@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 16:23:41 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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You create a problem by putting a noun suffix on a pronoun while using it as=
a verb, and besides, even if it worked, and it doesn't, you'd be saying, "T=
his it is a pie." One presumes you'd rather say, "It is this pie," or "This p=
ie is it."
chabvam 'oH.
Your longer sentence means, "This thing is a pie."
Note there is no article in Klingon, so "a" and "the" do not directly transl=
ate. Either context or more focused grammar would be needed to differentiate=
the meaning between the definite or indefinite article.=20
If you really mean, "This is THE pie," you might have to go as far as someth=
ing like one of the following:
chabvam 'oH; yapbe' latlh.=20
potlh chabvam neH.
chabvam vIDelta'bogh 'oH.
SoHvaD chabvam vIngu'lI'.=20
Likely, a better long version would be:
Doch 'oH chabvam'e'.
This pie is the thing.=20
The "this" is, in all cases you suggest, referring to the pie, not the prono=
un.=20
For "That is the captain." I'd probably say:
pa' HoD'e' ghaHtaH.
The topic marker isn't grammatically necessary, but you seem to be expressin=
g that the captain is the topic.=20
English uses the word "that" a lot of different ways. Klingon has no such wo=
rd, but instead has {-bogh} for its use as a relative pronoun, {pa'} for its=
use when you point to indicate an object and shout "THAT!" and {-vetlh} whe=
n it's used as an adjective.=20
Likely others will think of other uses and other constructions, but the poin=
t is, you need to reach beyond translating words and instead dwell in a real=
m where you express ideas using the tools of Klingon as a language.=20
New speakers need to express simpler things and acquire complexity at a natu=
ral pace over time.=20
Sent from my iPod
> On Apr 7, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Brad Wilson <bmacliam@aol.com> wrote:
>=20
> For what's it's worth, I am quite comfortable with {law' 'Iw}. To specify=
"where" the blood is abundant, one could add {naDev} or some other locative=
if it wasn't implicit in the statement.
> I have a somewhat related question. Is it acceptable to add {-vam/-vetlh} t=
o {'oH} to render something like this {chab 'oHvam} "this is the pie"
> Resorting to something like {chab 'oH Dochvam'e'} seems rather verbose for=
Klingon.
> If so, then perhaps {HoD ghaHvetlh} "that is the captain"
> gheyIl
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>You create a problem by putting a noun=
suffix on a pronoun while using it as a verb, and besides, even if it worke=
d, and it doesn't, you'd be saying, "This it is a pie." One presumes you'd r=
ather say, "It is this pie," or "This pie is it."</div><div><br></div><div>c=
habvam 'oH.</div><div><br></div><div>Your longer sentence means, "This thing=
is a pie."</div><div><br></div><div>Note there is no article in Klingon, so=
"a" and "the" do not directly translate. Either context or more focused gra=
mmar would be needed to differentiate the meaning between the definite or in=
definite article. </div><div><br></div><div>If you really mean, "This i=
s THE pie," you might have to go as far as something like one of the followi=
ng:</div><div><br></div><div>chabvam 'oH; yapbe' latlh. </div><div><br>=
</div><div>potlh chabvam neH.</div><div><br></div><div>chabvam vIDelta'bogh '=
oH.</div><div><br></div><div>SoHvaD chabvam vIngu'lI'. </div><div><br><=
/div><div>Likely, a better long version would be:</div><div><br></div><div>D=
och 'oH chabvam'e'.</div><div><br></div><div>This pie is the thing. </d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The "this" is, in all cases you suggest, referring to=
the pie, not the pronoun. </div><div><br></div><div>For "That is the c=
aptain." I'd probably say:</div><div><br></div><div>pa' HoD'e' ghaHtaH.</div=
><div><br></div><div>The topic marker isn't grammatically necessary, but you=
seem to be expressing that the captain is the topic. </div><div><br></=
div><div>English uses the word "that" a lot of different ways. Klingon has n=
o such word, but instead has {-bogh} for its use as a relative pronoun, {pa'=
} for its use when you point to indicate an object and shout "THAT!" and {-v=
etlh} when it's used as an adjective. </div><div><br></div><div>Likely o=
thers will think of other uses and other constructions, but the point is, yo=
u need to reach beyond translating words and instead dwell in a realm where y=
ou express ideas using the tools of Klingon as a language. </div><div><=
br></div><div>New speakers need to express simpler things and acquire comple=
xity at a natural pace over time. </div><div><br>Sent from my iPod</div=
><div><br>On Apr 7, 2014, at 10:49 AM, Brad Wilson <<a href=3D"mailto:bma=
cliam@aol.com">bmacliam@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div><font color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"arial">
<div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black;">
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_0_492e7633-c08c-49f5-a83f-29315f6517af" style=3D"margi=
n: 0px; font-size: 12px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255=
, 255);"><pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans=
-serif">For what's it's worth, I am quite comfortable with {law' 'Iw}. To sp=
ecify "where" the blood is abundant, one could add {naDev} or some other loc=
ative if it wasn't implicit in the statement.</font></pre><pre style=3D"font=
-size: 9pt;"><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have a somewhat r=
elated question. Is it acceptable to add {-vam/-vetlh} to {'oH} to render so=
mething like this </font><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-=
serif; font-size: 9pt;">{chab 'oHvam} "this is the pie"</span></pre><pre sty=
le=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif; font-size: 9pt;">Resorting to something like {chab 'oH Dochvam'e'} seem=
s rather verbose for Klingon.</span></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;">If s=
o, then perhaps {HoD ghaHvetlh} "that is the captain"</span></pre><pre style=
=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 9pt;">gheyIl</span></pre><pre style=3D"font-size: 9pt;"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 9pt;"><br>
</span></pre>
</div>
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