[97389] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Use of {net}
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Tue Oct 15 14:47:55 2013
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "'Klingon Mailing List'" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E877122FC335@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 11:46:49 -0700
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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What he said. I totally missed the qatlh, having already hung up on the
speaker evading making a statement directly. Klingon question words aren't
relative pronouns and if there were KSL classes the students would probably
have to do rote little exercises where they converted sentences like:
nuq Sop ra'wI'? -> Doch'e' Sopbogh ra'wI' vIngu'laHbe'.
qatlh Sop ra'wI'?--> ra'wI' SopmeH meq vIngu'laHbe'.
ghorgh Sop ra'wI'? -> ra'wI' SopmeH poH vIngu'laHbe'.
nuqDaq Sop ra'wI'? --> ra'wI' SopmeH Daq vIngu'laHbe'.
chay' Sop ra'wI'? --> ra'wI' SopmeH mIw vIngu'laHbe'.
'Iv Sop ra'wI'? --> nuv'e' Sopbogh ra'wI' vIngu'laHbe'.
If Klingon survives its current elite little "you have to be smart enough to
understand a language presented in the form of TKD to join our club" phase,
we probably will have such things.
Whew? Where did that come from? Two places I think . One is that last night
I was asked by a journalist about Klingon having "exercises", something that
by the context of the question was part of the qualifications of being a
real language, and two I'm studying a language now that is dying out amongst
the oral culture it has always lived in, and am frustrated seeing what are
effectively watered down academic treatises masquerading as textbooks. But
someone sent me a draft textbook today with a beautiful balance of grammar
and communication, so I can relax.
As you were.
From: Felix Malmenbeck [mailto:felixm@kth.se]
Sent: October 15, 2013 11:02 AM
To: Fiat Knox; Klingon Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Use of {net}
> qatlh DujlIj'e' nIHta' ra'wI' net SIv
I don't believe this is correct; I read it as "One wonders if the commander
has stolen your ship for what reason?"
I believe the only example we have of a question being used as an object is
{nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}, and here it's important to note that the whole
two-sentence construction is also a question. "I know you want to drink, but
what?"
For "One wonders why the commander has stolen your ship.", I'd go with
something like {DujlIj nIHta'meH ra'wI' meq SIvlu'.} ("One wonders of the
motivation for the commander to steal your ship."). However, as Qov
mentions, one should be sure one truly means for the wonderers to be
unspecified; in English, "one" is sometimes used as an alternative for "I",
"we" or "you", but this tendency need not have a parallel in Klingon.
_____
From: Fiat Knox [fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2013 19:17
To: Alex Greene; Klingon Mailing List
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] Use of {net}
I've been thinking about the use of net in a sentence.
The Klingon Dictionary has this to say about net:-
When the verb of the second sentence has a third-person subject (that is,
the pronominal prefix is 0) but the intended meaning is one or someone,
rather than he, she, it, or they, net is used instead of 'e'.
The Klingon Dictionary uses {net} in two example sentences:-
qama'pu' DIHoH net Sov - One knows we kill prisoners
Qu'vaD lI' net tu'bej One certainly finds it useful for the mission
I wonder. What other uses have you found for net in a sentence?
Would you, for instance, use qatlh DujlIj'e' nIHta' ra'wI' net SIv One
wonders why the Commander stole your ship
or jagh Suvlu'DI' net taj jej lo'nIS; jagh HoSghaj Suvlu'DI' net to' jej
lo'nIS When fighting an enemy, one must use a sharp blade; when fighting a
powerful enemy, one must use sharp tactics perhaps?
Tell me how you have used it, or why you have avoided it.
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>What he said. I totally missed the qatlh, having already hung up on =
the speaker evading making a statement directly. Klingon question words =
aren’t relative pronouns and if there were KSL classes the =
students would probably have to do rote little exercises where they =
converted sentences like:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>nuq Sop ra’wI’? –> Doch’e’ Sopbogh =
ra’wI’ vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>qatlh Sop ra’wI’?--> ra’wI’ SopmeH meq =
vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>ghorgh Sop ra’wI’? -> ra’wI’ SopmeH poH =
vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>nuqDaq Sop ra’wI’? --> ra’wI’ SopmeH Daq =
vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>chay’ Sop ra’wI’? --> ra’wI’ SopmeH =
mIw vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>‘Iv Sop ra’wI’? --> nuv’e’ Sopbogh =
ra’wI’ vIngu’laHbe’.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>If Klingon survives its current elite little “you have to be =
smart enough to understand a language presented in the form of TKD to =
join our club” phase, we probably will have such =
things.<br><br>Whew? Where did that come from? Two places I think . One =
is that last night I was asked by a journalist about Klingon having =
“exercises”, something that by the context of the question =
was part of the qualifications of being a real language, and two =
I’m studying a language now that is dying out amongst the oral =
culture it has always lived in, and am frustrated seeing what are =
effectively watered down academic treatises masquerading as textbooks. =
But someone sent me a draft textbook today with a beautiful =
balance of grammar and communication, so I can =
relax.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>As you were.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Felix =
Malmenbeck [mailto:felixm@kth.se] <br><b>Sent:</b> October 15, 2013 =
11:02 AM<br><b>To:</b> Fiat Knox; Klingon Mailing =
List<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Use of =
{net}<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black;background:white'>>=
; qatlh DujlIj'e' nIHta' ra'wI' net SIv<br><br></span></b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black;background:white'>I =
don't believe this is correct; I read it as "One wonders if the =
commander has stolen your ship for what reason?"<br>I believe the =
only example we have of a question being used as an object is {nuq =
Datlhutlh DaneH?}, and here it's important to note that the whole =
two-sentence construction is also a question. "I know you want to =
drink, but what?"<br><br>For "One wonders why the commander =
has stolen your ship.", I'd go with something like {DujlIj =
nIHta'meH ra'wI' meq SIvlu'.} ("One wonders of the motivation for =
the commander to steal your ship."). However, as Qov mentions, one =
should be sure one truly means for the wonderers to be unspecified; in =
English, "one" is sometimes used as an alternative for =
"I", "we" or "you", but this tendency need =
not have a parallel in Klingon.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'color:black'><hr size=3D2 =
width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><div id=3DdivRpF512192><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
Fiat Knox [fiat_knox@yahoo.co.uk]<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 15, =
2013 19:17<br><b>To:</b> Alex Greene; Klingon Mailing =
List<br><b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] Use of {net}</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>I've been thinking =
about the use of <b>net</b> in a =
sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>The Klingon =
Dictionary has this to say about =
<b>net</b>:-<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>When the verb of =
the second sentence has a third-person subject (that is, the pronominal =
prefix is 0) but the intended meaning is <i>one</i> or <i>someone</i>, =
rather than <i>he</i>, <i>she</i>, <i>it</i>, or <i>they</i>, <b>net</b> =
is used instead of <b>'e'</b>.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>The Klingon =
Dictionary uses {<b>net</b>} in two example =
sentences:-<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'>qama'pu' DIHoH net =
Sov</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'> - <i>One knows we =
kill prisoners</i><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:black'><br><b>Qu'vaD lI' =
net tu'bej</b> One certainly finds it useful for the mission<br><br>I =
wonder. What other uses have you found for <b>net</b> in a =
sentence?<br><br>Would you, for instance, use <b>qatlh DujlIj'e' nIHta' =
ra'wI' net SIv</b> <i>One wonders why the Commander stole</i> your =
<i>ship</i><br><br>or <b>jagh Suvlu'DI' net taj jej lo'nIS; jagh HoSghaj =
Suvlu'DI' net to' jej lo'nIS</b> <i>When fighting an enemy, one must use =
a sharp blade; when fighting a powerful enemy, one must use sharp =
tactics</i> perhaps?<br><br>Tell me how you have used it, or why you =
have avoided =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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