[96089] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay qarpatya')
Tue Apr 23 17:39:45 2013
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E8771227E0F3@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 17:39:21 -0400
From: "nIqolay qarpatya'" <niqolay0@gmail.com>
To: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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Thanks! I haven't read paq'batlh yet, so I didn't know if my questions
would be answered somewhere in there. I knew about HochHom but I didn't
know if that was considered just Hoch + -Hom, or a more idiomatic word that
couldn't be generalized.
On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
> 1) From paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 8, Stanza 11:
>
> jatlh =91e=92 mevDI=92 qeylIS, lop
>
> chaq tugh batlh Heghmo=92
> =91ej chaq tugh charghmo=92
>
> After Kahless's words, they celebrate,
> For they may soon die with honor!
> For they may soon be victorious!
>
> Another example is from paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 11:
>
> reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH
>
> Let endless battle and honor await them!
>
> ...and another, in paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 3:
>
> Hay=92chu=92 luneHqu=92
>
> vaj pe=92vIl joqqu=92
> cha=92 tlhIngan tIqDu=92
>
> Both Klingon hearts beat,
> At their strongest,
> In lust for blood.
>
> ...and I believe there are plenty more examples.
>
> 2) Epithets like petaQ appear to function as ordinary nouns. paq'batlh
> contains petaQ'e', petaQ'a', petaQvam and petaQmey.
>
> Names also seem to be able to take at least some noun suffixes. paq'batlh
> gives us qeylIS'e' and qeylISma'.
>
> Hoch and latlh are marked as nouns in TKD.
> HochHom is a standard expression, usually translated as "most" or "greate=
r
> part". paq'batlh also gives us HochvaD and Hoch'e'.
> latlhpu' has also been used in canon.
> http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1997-06-holqed-06-2.txt&get=3D=
source
>
> I have no idea about numbers. TKD tells us
>
> Numbers are used as nouns. As such, they may stand alone
> as subjects or objects or they may modify another noun.
>
> However, this may simply be referring to the fact that they can act as
> stand-alone subjects and objects.
> paq'batlh mentions SaD law' to mean "thousands", which is very "noun:ish"
> of SaD.
> My feeling is it should be fine, but I'm far from certain.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* nIqolay qarpatya' [niqolay0@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 23, 2013 22:53
> *To:* tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> *Subject:* [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials,
> noun-like words
>
> Hello! I've got a few questions about some minor points of Klingon
> grammar. I've been messing around with Klingon for years, and I try to
> follow the KLI mailing list and the updated lists of new words and canon,
> but there's still some things I have questions about.
> 1) Is there any canon, one way or the other, on the acceptability of
> using multiple adverbials in one sentence? DaH tagha' qayaj! ("Now I
> finally understand you!"), pay' bong Heghpu' ("His death was a sudden
> accident.") It seems like it should be acceptable, or at least
> understandable, but I suppose that could probably be said about a number =
of
> utterances now known to be non-grammatical.
>
> 2) Likewise, can epithets, number words, and quantity words be suffixed
> like regular nouns? To what extent would sentences like the following be
> permissible:
> DujwIj tI'Ha' taHqeq'a'pu'vetlh! ("Those colossal jackasses botched the
> repairs on my ship!")
> pIj Seng cha'vam ("These two are trouble.")
> "Neo", wa''a' SoH ("Neo, you are the One.")
> latlhpu' tIvoqQo'. ("Don't trust the others.")
> Hochqoq nuja'pu' ("He told us 'everything'." i.e. "He claims he told us
> everything but I don't believe him.")
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks! I haven't read paq'batlh yet, so I didn=
9;t know if my questions would be answered somewhere in there. I knew about=
HochHom but I didn't know if that was considered just Hoch + -Hom, or =
a more idiomatic word that couldn't be generalized.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 23, 2=
013 at 5:29 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:fe=
lixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</a>></span> wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr;font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma">1)=A0 From p=
aq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 8, Stanza 11:<br>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:norma=
l;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:normal">jatlh =91e=92 mevDI=92 qeylIS, lop</span></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><sp=
an style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;f=
ont-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family=
:Arial;font-weight:normal">chaq
tugh batlh Heghmo=92</span></p>
<span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:norma=
l;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:normal">=91ej chaq tugh charghmo=92</span><br>
<br>
After Kahless's words, they celebrate,<br>
For they may soon die with honor!<br>
For they may soon be victorious!<br>
<br>
Another example is from paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 11:<br=
>
<br>
<span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:norma=
l;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:normal">reH
batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH</span><br>
<br>
Let endless battle and honor await them!<br>
<br>
...and another, in paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 3:<br>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt">
<span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:norma=
l;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:normal">Hay=92chu=92 luneHqu=92</span></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt"><sp=
an style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;f=
ont-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-family=
:Arial;font-weight:normal">vaj
pe=92vIl joqqu=92</span></p>
<span style=3D"vertical-align:baseline;font-variant:normal;font-style:norma=
l;font-size:15px;background-color:transparent;text-decoration:none;font-fam=
ily:Arial;font-weight:normal">cha=92 tlhIngan tIqDu=92</span><br>
<br>
Both Klingon hearts beat,<br>
At their strongest,<br>
In lust for blood.<br>
<br>
...and I believe there are plenty more examples.<br>
<br>
2) Epithets like petaQ appear to function as ordinary nouns. paq'batlh =
contains petaQ'e', petaQ'a', petaQvam and petaQmey.<br>
<br>
Names also seem to be able to take at least some noun suffixes. paq'bat=
lh gives us qeylIS'e' and qeylISma'.<br>
<br>
Hoch and latlh are marked as nouns in TKD.<br>
HochHom is a standard expression, usually translated as "most" or=
"greater part". paq'batlh also gives us HochvaD and Hoch'=
;e'.<br>
latlhpu' has also been used in canon. <a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/=
canon/search/?file=3D1997-06-holqed-06-2.txt&get=3Dsource" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=3D1997-06-holqed-06-2.txt&am=
p;get=3Dsource</a><br>
<br>
I have no idea about numbers. TKD tells us<br>
<pre>Numbers are used as nouns. As such, they may stand alone
as subjects or objects or they may modify another noun.</pre>
However, this may simply be referring to the fact that they can act as stan=
d-alone subjects and objects.<br>
paq'batlh mentions SaD law' to mean "thousands", which is=
very "noun:ish" of SaD.<br>
My feeling is it should be fine, but I'm far from certain.<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-size:16px;font-family:Times New Roman">
<hr>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>Fro=
m:</b> nIqolay qarpatya' [<a href=3D"mailto:niqolay0@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 22:53<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" target=
=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials=
, noun-like words<br>
</font><br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>Hello! I've got a few questions about some minor points of Klingon=
grammar. I've been messing around with Klingon for years, and I try to=
follow the KLI mailing list and the updated lists of new words and canon, =
but there's still some things I have questions
about.<br>
</div>
1) Is there any canon, one way or the other, on the acceptability of using =
multiple adverbials in one sentence? DaH tagha' qayaj! ("Now I fin=
ally understand you!"), pay' bong Heghpu' ("His death was=
a sudden accident.") It seems like it should be acceptable,
or at least understandable, but I suppose that could probably be said abou=
t a number of utterances now known to be non-grammatical.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>2) Likewise, can epithets, number words, and quantity words be suffixe=
d like regular nouns? To what extent would sentences like the following be =
permissible:<br>
</div>
<div>DujwIj tI'Ha' taHqeq'a'pu'vetlh! ("Those colo=
ssal jackasses botched the repairs on my ship!")<br>
</div>
<div>pIj Seng cha'vam ("These two are trouble.")<br>
</div>
<div>"Neo", wa''a' SoH ("Neo, you are the One.&q=
uot;)<br>
</div>
<div>latlhpu' tIvoqQo'. ("Don't trust the others.")<b=
r>
</div>
<div>Hochqoq nuja'pu' ("He told us 'everything'."=
i.e. "He claims he told us everything but I don't believe him.&qu=
ot;)</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>
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