[96088] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Tue Apr 23 17:30:30 2013
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: nIqolay qarpatya' <niqolay0@gmail.com>,
"tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 21:29:57 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAG84SOsStev_YSDH1o0qM6piPejJQ6rds55riywz840f8UwsAw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
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1) From paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 8, Stanza 11:
jatlh =91e=92 mevDI=92 qeylIS, lop
chaq tugh batlh Heghmo=92
=91ej chaq tugh charghmo=92
After Kahless's words, they celebrate,
For they may soon die with honor!
For they may soon be victorious!
Another example is from paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 11:
reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH
Let endless battle and honor await them!
...and another, in paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 3:
Hay=92chu=92 luneHqu=92
vaj pe=92vIl joqqu=92
cha=92 tlhIngan tIqDu=92
Both Klingon hearts beat,
At their strongest,
In lust for blood.
...and I believe there are plenty more examples.
2) Epithets like petaQ appear to function as ordinary nouns. paq'batlh cont=
ains petaQ'e', petaQ'a', petaQvam and petaQmey.
Names also seem to be able to take at least some noun suffixes. paq'batlh g=
ives us qeylIS'e' and qeylISma'.
Hoch and latlh are marked as nouns in TKD.
HochHom is a standard expression, usually translated as "most" or "greater =
part". paq'batlh also gives us HochvaD and Hoch'e'.
latlhpu' has also been used in canon. http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?f=
ile=3D1997-06-holqed-06-2.txt&get=3Dsource
I have no idea about numbers. TKD tells us
Numbers are used as nouns. As such, they may stand alone
as subjects or objects or they may modify another noun.
However, this may simply be referring to the fact that they can act as stan=
d-alone subjects and objects.
paq'batlh mentions SaD law' to mean "thousands", which is very "noun:ish" o=
f SaD.
My feeling is it should be fine, but I'm far from certain.
________________________________
From: nIqolay qarpatya' [niqolay0@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2013 22:53
To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials, noun-=
like words
Hello! I've got a few questions about some minor points of Klingon grammar.=
I've been messing around with Klingon for years, and I try to follow the K=
LI mailing list and the updated lists of new words and canon, but there's s=
till some things I have questions about.
1) Is there any canon, one way or the other, on the acceptability of using =
multiple adverbials in one sentence? DaH tagha' qayaj! ("Now I finally unde=
rstand you!"), pay' bong Heghpu' ("His death was a sudden accident.") It se=
ems like it should be acceptable, or at least understandable, but I suppose=
that could probably be said about a number of utterances now known to be n=
on-grammatical.
2) Likewise, can epithets, number words, and quantity words be suffixed lik=
e regular nouns? To what extent would sentences like the following be permi=
ssible:
DujwIj tI'Ha' taHqeq'a'pu'vetlh! ("Those colossal jackasses botched the rep=
airs on my ship!")
pIj Seng cha'vam ("These two are trouble.")
"Neo", wa''a' SoH ("Neo, you are the One.")
latlhpu' tIvoqQo'. ("Don't trust the others.")
Hochqoq nuja'pu' ("He told us 'everything'." i.e. "He claims he told us eve=
rything but I don't believe him.")
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<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">1) From paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 8, Stanza 11:<br>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" id=
=3D"docs-internal-guid-028e4101-38b2-3044-27c6-e4348876f6ef">
<span style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-co=
lor:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">jatlh =91e=92 mevDI=92 qeylIS,=
lop</span></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-colo=
r:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text=
-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">chaq
tugh batlh Heghmo=92</span></p>
<span style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-co=
lor:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">=91ej chaq tugh charghmo=92</s=
pan><br>
<br>
After Kahless's words, they celebrate,<br>
For they may soon die with honor!<br>
For they may soon be victorious!<br>
<br>
Another example is from paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 17, Stanza 11:<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-co=
lor:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;" id=3D"docs-internal-guid-028e4=
101-38b4-fcef-1829-dda96757767b">reH
batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH</span><br>
<br>
Let endless battle and honor await them!<br>
<br>
...and another, in paq'batlh, paq'raD, Canto 23, Stanza 3:<br>
<br>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;" id=
=3D"docs-internal-guid-028e4101-38b7-5936-9c08-81f8fcda9f3b">
<span style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-co=
lor:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">Hay=92chu=92 luneHqu=92</span>=
</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"line-height:1;margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-colo=
r:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;text=
-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">vaj
pe=92vIl joqqu=92</span></p>
<span style=3D"font-size:15px;font-family:Arial;color:#000000;background-co=
lor:transparent;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;te=
xt-decoration:none;vertical-align:baseline;">cha=92 tlhIngan tIqDu=92</span=
><br>
<br>
Both Klingon hearts beat,<br>
At their strongest,<br>
In lust for blood.<br>
<br>
...and I believe there are plenty more examples.<br>
<br>
2) Epithets like petaQ appear to function as ordinary nouns. paq'batlh cont=
ains petaQ'e', petaQ'a', petaQvam and petaQmey.<br>
<br>
Names also seem to be able to take at least some noun suffixes. paq'batlh g=
ives us qeylIS'e' and qeylISma'.<br>
<br>
Hoch and latlh are marked as nouns in TKD.<br>
HochHom is a standard expression, usually translated as "most" or=
"greater part". paq'batlh also gives us HochvaD and Hoch'e'.<br>
latlhpu' has also been used in canon. http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?f=
ile=3D1997-06-holqed-06-2.txt&get=3Dsource<br>
<br>
I have no idea about numbers. TKD tells us<br>
<pre>Numbers are used as nouns. As such, they may stand alone=0A=
as subjects or objects or they may modify another noun.</pre>
However, this may simply be referring to the fact that they can act as stan=
d-alone subjects and objects.<br>
paq'batlh mentions SaD law' to mean "thousands", which is very &q=
uot;noun:ish" of SaD.<br>
My feeling is it should be fine, but I'm far from certain.<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;" id=3D"divRpF537068"><font size=3D"2" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Tahoma"><b>From:</b> nIqolay qarpatya' [niqolay0@gmail=
.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 23, 2013 22:53<br>
<b>To:</b> tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Tlhingan-hol] A few questions about grammar re: adverbials=
, noun-like words<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>Hello! I've got a few questions about some minor points of Klingon gra=
mmar. I've been messing around with Klingon for years, and I try to follow =
the KLI mailing list and the updated lists of new words and canon, but ther=
e's still some things I have questions
about.<br>
</div>
1) Is there any canon, one way or the other, on the acceptability of using =
multiple adverbials in one sentence? DaH tagha' qayaj! ("Now I finally=
understand you!"), pay' bong Heghpu' ("His death was a sudden ac=
cident.") It seems like it should be acceptable,
or at least understandable, but I suppose that could probably be said abou=
t a number of utterances now known to be non-grammatical.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>2) Likewise, can epithets, number words, and quantity words be suffixe=
d like regular nouns? To what extent would sentences like the following be =
permissible:<br>
</div>
<div>DujwIj tI'Ha' taHqeq'a'pu'vetlh! ("Those colossal jackasses botch=
ed the repairs on my ship!")<br>
</div>
<div>pIj Seng cha'vam ("These two are trouble.")<br>
</div>
<div>"Neo", wa''a' SoH ("Neo, you are the One.")<br>
</div>
<div>latlhpu' tIvoqQo'. ("Don't trust the others.")<br>
</div>
<div>Hochqoq nuja'pu' ("He told us 'everything'." i.e. "He c=
laims he told us everything but I don't believe him.")</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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